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London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

btp.police.uk

221–230 of 497 posts

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#221
post #53

It’s a moot point. I’m saddened at the invasion of privacy and the intrusion on an individual’s civil liberties, but anonymous travel on the London Underground died when they made bank cards and contactless the primary way to get through the barriers. I’m not saying that “this doesn’t matter because it’s slightly worse than before”. I’m saying the frog has been boiling for a long time. I don’t want people being surpr…

Oyster is still anonymous, in the sense that no details are required to buy a card, and it can be topped up using cash. The cards can be returned or disposed of as necessary. But as you say, it knows your movements at least in so far as your entry and exit point in the system, with a timestamp, though you can use a separate card for each if you don't mind paying the full fare that gets charged when a journey is 'inco…

Self-checkout at the grocery store is a major vector for shoplifting. That's why the cameras are there.

If I was running such a store, I wouldn't want to spend the money on those cameras. But alas, the money is well spent in stopping thieves.

I was talking to one of the staff in a grocery store a while ago. He said the corporate auditors came in one day and decided to review the security cams. The result was half the staff was fired for theft.

It's just too bad that we live in a low trust society.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#222
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point with those supermarket cameras is to influence behaviour, not to surveil, I doubt they are even recording. When I was a kid (maybe in a worse area than you) there were CRT TVs by entrances of supermarkets showing a live feed of you walking in. People behave differently when they feel they are being watched, it's why they have creepy CCTV posters with big eyes on them. Probably the same reason for ev…

Yes, this has been under consideration when thinking just how much raw footage would have to be stored for 4 or more self-checkout cameras for every shop. Probably multiple terabytes per day, per chain, just for London. There is also the classic 'plastic camera with blinking LED' CCTV installation, intended to deter theft in a more lo-fi manner. As an aside, the artist John Baldessari made an installation in the Tate…

You only need 3-5 fps SD video and with motion sensing you only record when there is a customer at the self-checkout. Technically, it is absolutely doable.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So flash bang grenades to peaceful protesters skulls is okay? Shooting rubber bullets at peaceful protesters eyes is okay?

As usual, it depends. "Peaceful" is a very subjective term. Like the mostly peaceful but fiery protests in Wisconsin.

OWS https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/26/occupy-oakland...

BLM https://rubberbullets.longlead.com/chapter/minneapolis-polic...

No Kings https://www.cnn.com/2026/04/15/us/no-kings-protest-usc-stude...

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#225
post #53

It’s a moot point. I’m saddened at the invasion of privacy and the intrusion on an individual’s civil liberties, but anonymous travel on the London Underground died when they made bank cards and contactless the primary way to get through the barriers. I’m not saying that “this doesn’t matter because it’s slightly worse than before”. I’m saying the frog has been boiling for a long time. I don’t want people being surpr…

And the thing that absolutely fucks me off about all of this, is that we don't even get a lawful society in exchange for all of this. On one hand, there's no privacy anywhere. On the other - have your car stolen or a bike? House broken into? Phone snatched out of your hands? Good luck getting anyone to care about this in the slightest. You'd think with all the surveillance tech we'd be living in a nightmare panoptico…

> Or in another anecdote

No, man, anecdotes are more often than not pure misinformation. You live in a country where car theft has absolutely plummeted in the last 30 years. Look it up, I guarantee it. 100 %. I'm almost certain it's the same for bike theft too.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting the perception that Americans generally fear London? I don't know a single American that has ever expressed any sentiment that London is unsafe. I know a few that have some stupid notions about immigrants in the UK, but that isn't exclusive to people on this side of the pond. Genuinely, though. Americans just don't worry about safety in London outside of scams and petty crime inherent to any big…

I wouldn't say it's a general belief, but it is a point that certain groups like to push. See e.g. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2026/01/28/haters-on-the-r... (paywalled, but even the first paragraph is enough).

Donald Trump and Farage say so? Must be true.

Where is the evidence that it is a peculiarly American belief? Or were you just eager to pick on Americans

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#227
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Abusive police officers in the US for example use Flock to stalk ex girlfriends. the UK is not the US ;)

Yes I'm sure their police force is entirely free of any psychological problems and in no way selects for people who might be incline to abuse their position of authority. Oh wait, this came out just yesterday: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/08/10/detective-respon...

on a micro level there are always specific cases of individual in group did a thing.

but we have a totally different approach to policing, which is what i was actually meaning https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56834733

> The report looked at police training requirements in more than 100 countries and found that the US had among the lowest, in terms of average hours required.

> Also, many other countries require officers to have a university degree - or equivalent - before joining the police, but in the US most forces just require the equivalent of a high-school diploma.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oyster is still anonymous, in the sense that no details are required to buy a card, and it can be topped up using cash. The cards can be returned or disposed of as necessary. But as you say, it knows your movements at least in so far as your entry and exit point in the system, with a timestamp, though you can use a separate card for each if you don't mind paying the full fare that gets charged when a journey is 'inco…

Self-checkout at the grocery store is a major vector for shoplifting. That's why the cameras are there. If I was running such a store, I wouldn't want to spend the money on those cameras. But alas, the money is well spent in stopping thieves. I was talking to one of the staff in a grocery store a while ago. He said the corporate auditors came in one day and decided to review the security cams. The result was half the…

So maybe the problem is that you shouldn’t have self checkout if you cannot do it without immediately being stolen from?

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#229
post #13

I really don't understand why they do trials for this. What would be the failure case for the trial? "We carried out the trial for 6 weeks over X period of time, we arrested Y people, at that rate we've decided this is not compatible with modern liberal democracy, we would've traded a free society for Y+2 arrests over X period but we just didn't quite get there"? As suggested by other people - this is just going to b…

The failure mode is incorrect detections. If the automated system says person 1 from camera 1 is the same as person 1 in camera 2, and then extrapolate out to 10,000 people and cameras, and then don't get it wrong. Because the BBC is never going to let you live it down if the person they arrested for stealing kinda sorta looks like the guy that actually did the stealing.

As an illustration of this, 100% of the detections in the trial in 2026 have been false positives. Scanning tens of thousands of faces for each deployment, they’ve had exactly one detection, which was false:

https://www.btp.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/images/british...

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#230
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-checkout at the grocery store is a major vector for shoplifting. That's why the cameras are there. If I was running such a store, I wouldn't want to spend the money on those cameras. But alas, the money is well spent in stopping thieves. I was talking to one of the staff in a grocery store a while ago. He said the corporate auditors came in one day and decided to review the security cams. The result was half the…

So maybe the problem is that you shouldn’t have self checkout if you cannot do it without immediately being stolen from?

The self-checkout is there because it is cheaper than a cashier.
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