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The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

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Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#221

Post by jolmg »

drooby wrote: post #162
Aurornis wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's their parents' decision to make, not yours.

Should it also be their decision that they can gamble? Smoke cigarettes? Get a job? Have sex? We draw the line somewhere because these things that "are the parents' decision" have consequences on broader society. They have consequences that impact you and me. And we also have a say. You can make the argument that it's just the parents' decision. But you have to say why.

> Should it also be their decision that they can gamble? Smoke cigarettes? Get a job? Have sex?

Not on the first 2 because they're illegal for minors. Yes on the last 2. A parent can e.g. forbid their minor from being employed if it's hindering their studies. They also have a say on their romantic partner and how they interact. If rules are not followed, they can e.g. be grounded.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#222

Post by wolvoleo »

johnc1 wrote: post #106
j2kun wrote: post #21

There are at least some technological solutions here, such as anonymous credentials. [1] Modern versions of this technique allow one to associate metadata (like a proof of age exceeding a threshold) in such a way that the verifier can't even correlate repeated requests across users. Governments that are serious about age verification and individual privacy (which, doubtful they truly are) should agree on a protocol a…

There is a much easier solution that already exists - parental controls on children's devices. I honestly don't understand why is it not solving the problem? Yes, parents are responsible to set this up. But parents are also responsible to lock their alcohol, drugs or guns, condoms, etc., and many other things. Perhaps parental controls are not good enough? That's where the regulation could genuinely help - require ch…

Yeah. Didn't you find your dad's dirty VHS tapes when you were young? I'm sure most of us did. And we turned out fine.

And no, porn isn't more extreme these days either. I remember seeing bukkake, golden showers etc on borrowed tapes and hacked pay TV. BDSM existed back then too. And I had some pics of a girls face surrounded by male members and their output. Never once did I think this would be a normal thing to do with my girlfriend once I got one.

And these things are still gonna happen. Teens are going to go through their dad's phone when he's sleeping, find his stack of Blu-ray's or vids on this computer. Even with all this age verification stuff. I don't understand why we suddenly think that's the end of civilization.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#223

Post by cucumber3732842 »

ricree wrote: post #57
miiiiiike wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even on Hacker News the consensus is mostly in favor of anything from age restriction to making all social media illegal. That doesn't sound right. Put up a poll. I'd put money on 90%+ choosing some flavor privacy/anonymity on the internet.

The main issue is that they are very careful not to frame it like that. In broader contexts, it's always framed as something like "do you favor limiting children's access to social media" without a word on what it would cost to actually institute such a ban.

Exactly. You frame these things in the general case and HN is against it because obviously it's evil.

You frame it as "we've come up with a composite score (social credit) that lets us more efficiently enforce [stuff HN likes but the population likes way less]" and it's mostly all cheering and the one guy with principals is downvoted and flagged.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#224

Post by marking-time »

miiiiiike wrote: post #9

I’m glad this is finally becoming the cause célèbre du jour. This feels like THE FIGHT or at least one of the TOP 3 THE FIGHTS and it hasn’t had even a fraction of the public’s attention until now.

Most folks already know the internet is not a safe place to express political thought. The powerlessness the public feels is obvious.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#225

Post by doginasuit »

OnionBlender wrote: post #8
gchamonlive wrote: post #2

Who'd have guessed hitting the library would become an act of rebellious defiance

How is hitting the library an act of rebellious defiance? Getting a library card requires an ID and proof of address. The library then tracks which books you've signed out. Unless you're reading the books inside the library without signing them out.

A library is supported by local property taxes, so requiring proof of residence serves a practical purpose. Of course they are going to track loaned books too. This is not the same thing, by any stretch. If they are somehow making that information available beyond the scope of the library system it is a breach of trust.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#226

Post by cucumber3732842 »

Kuyawa wrote: post #175

There is absolutely no privacy on the internet, Snowden told us 13 years ago but we all forgot. The government already knows everything about us, and I mean everything. It is extremely naive to think they don't or that you are safe behind a VPN.

There is a difference between the NSA knowing and being every petty burocrat being a trivial administrative subpoena away from everything.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#227

Post by Magnusmaster »

Aurornis wrote: post #102
quotemstr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple approaches. One, which the Europeans use, hardware-locks the token. Each age attestation is unlinkable, but the cryptographic credentials you need to make the attestation aren't portable. Of course, this model requires a big statist apparatus that does implementation certification, but it does achieve the narrow goal of unlinkable, privacy-preserving age attestation that doesn't instantly decay to…

> One, which the Europeans use, hardware-locks the token. I'm surprised anyone considers this viable. It would limit access to those sites to a limited set of acceptable devices and operating systems. I couldn't use my laptop, desktop, or a jailbroken phone.

Exactly. And the funny thing is that the EU Age Verification App seems to be vulnerable to relay attacks anyway.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#228

Post by what »

Aurornis wrote: post #122
vkou wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does this 3rd party identity token provider come from? Some oracle whose job it is to print tokens and hand out rolls to the stores (and to the websystems). They would know which store got which roll, and which website authenticated it, but not who each ticket from that roll went to. With a big enough roll, this is essentially anonymous. Yes, lotteries know which store got the winning ticket, but they have no…

I'm talking about identity token services. You're saying the real solution is that we bring in a private, 3rd-party company to start checking our IDs to access websites now?

It’s millions of third party companies checking ids. Anywhere that sells alcohol or tobacco could do it.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#229

Post by Geezus_42 »

madrox wrote: post #179
Geezus_42 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could try investing in positive infrastructure that improves peoples life's in stead of creating the panopticon torment nexus. Things like third spaces where people can spend time is save spaces where they form communities and public transit so that people can get to those places. Incentivize positive behaviors instead of closing off public spaces and pricing more and more people out of being able to do anything w…

That sounds like a great idea, but I think we should also try to solve human trafficking online.

Creating a surveillance state isn't going to solve human trafficing.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#230

Post by Geezus_42 »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #147
Geezus_42 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every government has been working on ways to identify and target individuals online since as long as the internet has existed. Governments are incentivized to continuously increase control. Why would you assume this is not yet another escalation towards their goal of being able to track and silence anyone who pushes back?

I didn't comment at all on what the governments goals are Edit: I agree with you 100%, but the fact that governments want to track people online has no bearing on how technically possible it is to build a system where they can't An anonymous internet auth system (probably) won't get built, but it is possible to build

How is it possible to have something that both proves something about your identity but also does not allow ANYONE to deanonymize you?
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