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DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

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Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#221

Post by SubiculumCode »

throwaway67678 wrote: post #218
SubiculumCode wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides common sense given the clear geopolitical context, sources like: [1] https://chinaselectcommittee.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/se... [2] https://ai.americansecurityproject.org/news/ai-imperative-20... and more. Of course, you can choose to ignore America-biased sources, but since it aligns with the obvious.

There is no evidence in those sources that DeepSeek is "subsidized" by the CCP in the way people imply (e.g. in an actively malicious*, market-distorting way that undercuts the competition, early Uber-style). They do receive tax breaks for their R&D research, a very common scheme in Europe (and which also used to be the case in the US, I believe). They also have public-private partnerships, e.g. the state is one of t…

"According to a report from Securities Times (a Chinese state-owned newspaper), Zhejiang Oriental, a listed company under the Zhejiang Provincial SASAC, participated in the angel round of financing of DeepSeek through its Hangzhou Oriental Jiafu Venture Capital Fund."[1]

"The Zhejiang Provincial State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC) is the provincial government agency in Zhejiang, China, responsible for managing, regulating, and overseeing the state-owned assets and enterprises owned by the provincial government." [2]

What does this imply? A state-owned company in China invested a ton of money into DeepSeek. aka State subsidization.

[1] https://www.americansecurityproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2... [2] https://www.fitchratings.com/research/corporate-finance/zhej...

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#222

Post by BoiledCabbage »

owebmaster wrote: post #172
BoiledCabbage wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't you understand? I'm on team deepseek! It doesn't matter what's written about it. Heck it doesn't even matter if it's all lies - it supports my team and here's why I love my team."

The only thing I could read from your posts is that you are team openai and completely mad that people are abandoning chatgpt

"You're on the team against me so I oppose everything you say".

Again it's the same problem - what you're doing. I'm not on "team OpenAI". I'm also not on "team deepseek". I'm commenting on how so much of the population is literally unable to see the world unless it is filtered through some "team" lens that they are for or against.

Judge the material based on what's in the material. Not as it boosting or hurting your "team".

The material in this article is crap judge it as crap and say so regardless of your team.

But here you look at my saying something negative about a post that is pro "team deepseek" so the only conclusion you're able to make is that I must be for the other team.

It's the inability to think critically that is astounding me here. So many opinion's people have now is now just "is it for team or against my team". They are unable to even think of anything else.

I wrote that entire post and you even said you couldn't understand it unless you put it through a lens of being for or against a team...

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#223

Post by throwaway67678 »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #221
throwaway67678 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence in those sources that DeepSeek is "subsidized" by the CCP in the way people imply (e.g. in an actively malicious*, market-distorting way that undercuts the competition, early Uber-style). They do receive tax breaks for their R&D research, a very common scheme in Europe (and which also used to be the case in the US, I believe). They also have public-private partnerships, e.g. the state is one of t…

"According to a report from Securities Times (a Chinese state-owned newspaper), Zhejiang Oriental, a listed company under the Zhejiang Provincial SASAC, participated in the angel round of financing of DeepSeek through its Hangzhou Oriental Jiafu Venture Capital Fund."[1] "The Zhejiang Provincial State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC) is the provincial government agency in Zhejiang, China…

Again, that's besides the point. So the state is an investor in DS, and? Many companies in Western capitalist economies receive initial state funding, especially startup grants. The real point to make is: does the state purposely fund the structural expenses of all those companies at a loss in an effort to undercut the competition and without which they would all go bankrupt and the cost of inference would be naturally much higher and couldn't be possibly optimized? I have yet to see evidence of that, especially given the continuous and prolific R&D from Chinese labs (or the panic at Meta when DS-r1 came out) that does show optimization gains are in fact possible.

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#224

Post by maxglute »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #221
throwaway67678 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence in those sources that DeepSeek is "subsidized" by the CCP in the way people imply (e.g. in an actively malicious*, market-distorting way that undercuts the competition, early Uber-style). They do receive tax breaks for their R&D research, a very common scheme in Europe (and which also used to be the case in the US, I believe). They also have public-private partnerships, e.g. the state is one of t…

"According to a report from Securities Times (a Chinese state-owned newspaper), Zhejiang Oriental, a listed company under the Zhejiang Provincial SASAC, participated in the angel round of financing of DeepSeek through its Hangzhou Oriental Jiafu Venture Capital Fund."[1] "The Zhejiang Provincial State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC) is the provincial government agency in Zhejiang, China…

They invested in a labelling company called "Deep Search" that news confused with "Deep Seek". It was corrected like a week later, of course very not agenda driven americansecuirtyproject never followed up / did retraction.

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#225

Post by SubiculumCode »

maxglute wrote: post #224
SubiculumCode wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"According to a report from Securities Times (a Chinese state-owned newspaper), Zhejiang Oriental, a listed company under the Zhejiang Provincial SASAC, participated in the angel round of financing of DeepSeek through its Hangzhou Oriental Jiafu Venture Capital Fund."[1] "The Zhejiang Provincial State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC) is the provincial government agency in Zhejiang, China…

They invested in a labelling company called "Deep Search" that news confused with "Deep Seek". It was corrected like a week later, of course very not agenda driven americansecuirtyproject never followed up / did retraction.

Have a source on that?

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#226

Post by SubiculumCode »

throwaway67678 wrote: post #223
SubiculumCode wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"According to a report from Securities Times (a Chinese state-owned newspaper), Zhejiang Oriental, a listed company under the Zhejiang Provincial SASAC, participated in the angel round of financing of DeepSeek through its Hangzhou Oriental Jiafu Venture Capital Fund."[1] "The Zhejiang Provincial State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC) is the provincial government agency in Zhejiang, China…

Again, that's besides the point. So the state is an investor in DS, and? Many companies in Western capitalist economies receive initial state funding, especially startup grants. The real point to make is: does the state purposely fund the structural expenses of all those companies at a loss in an effort to undercut the competition and without which they would all go bankrupt and the cost of inference would be natural…

An angel investor is an investor who provides early-stage capital to startups and entrepreneurs in exchange for ownership equity. That is not a grant or initial state funding. That is ownership. There are very few examples, especially prior to Trump, of government ownership/stakes of public companies.

But I will concede this: Due to the opaque nature of the Chinese economy to public scrutiny, we might never know.

I am sure, however that substantial use of Chinese inference (not their models per se, but on their servers) is, in aggregate, presents a substantial national security risk for the West. Heck, AI all by itself, without even considering other nations, is a national security threat of the near future, where national security is broadly construed as any threat against its people's welfare, no matter the actor.

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#227

Post by SwellJoe »

andai wrote: post #185
SwellJoe wrote: post #7

I tried adding GPT 5.5 Pro to a vulnerability scanning benchmark I made ( https://swelljoe.com/post/will-it-mythos/ ), and it blew through the $100 budget limit halfway through. DeepSeek V4 Pro cost about a dollar for the whole benchmark. GPT Pro cost an average of $22 per case (a case could be 1-5 files with a recent known vulnerability, usually just a single file and a prompt along the lines of "does this file have…

Great article. I'm confused how Sonnet did worse than Haiku though. You mention it did find a bunch of other bugs, just not the ones you were looking for? 9 bugs is probably a bit low of a sample size to get a ranking. That being said the ranking does end up roughly how you'd expect. Deepseek is Pro, right? Not Flash? I've been using Flash for a lot of smaller tasks and finding it reasonably good. It's good for "inte…

I was surprised by Sonnet's performance, as well. And, it's difficult to say any model is really worse or better based on one attempt across nine bugs (several of which have proven to be intractable for all models, thus far). But, in this particular set of problems, Haiku seems to have done a little bit better. But, self-hosted Qwen 3.6 and Gemma 4 also seem to have done better than Sonnet or Haiku, which is surprising. So, there are surely confounding variables here, but I don't know what they are yet. More testing and more analysis of the data will probably reveal it. It may be that using the Anthropic models in the simpler API harness will unleash their power, maybe there are guardrails baked into the Claude Code system prompt that make the small models too conflicted about right and wrong to answer clearly.

DeepSeek was actually the `deepseek-chat` alias in the API (which dynamically chooses the model based on info I don't know), but when I checked the usage, it was all DeepSeek V4 Pro for the benchmark. I later changed DeepSeek to explicitly use Pro for subsequent experiments, so future runs will be explicitly Pro.

I probably will do a test of smaller models, exclusively, at some point. But, I figured DeepSeek V4 Pro is so cheap, especially given their caching effectiveness and cached input pricing, for my own use I'll probably just use DeepSeek V4 Pro when I need a cheap, fast, near-frontier model.

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#228

Post by maxglute »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #225
maxglute wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They invested in a labelling company called "Deep Search" that news confused with "Deep Seek". It was corrected like a week later, of course very not agenda driven americansecuirtyproject never followed up / did retraction.

Have a source on that?

Too annoying to track down the original posts, but here's mirror:

>Gelonghui, February 11th | Zhejiang Orient Financial Holdings Group (600120.SH) announced the following explanation regarding the recently market-focused "DeepSeek Concept": DeepSeek is a large model under Hangzhou DeepSeek AI Basic Technology Research Co., Ltd. (hereinafter referred to as "DeepSeek"). In response to matters of concern in the Capital Markets, the company verified that as of the date of this announcement, the names of companies invested by the fund Sector managed by the company, such as Peking Deep Search Technology Co., Ltd. and Peking Jiuzhang Yunjike Technology Co., Ltd., are quite similar to those of DeepSeek and its affiliated enterprises, but there is no equity investment relationship. The company and the relevant private equity funds managed by the fund Sector have not directly or indirectly invested in DeepSeek.

ttps://news.futunn.com/en/post/53041547/zhejiang-orient-financial-holdings-group-600120-sh-and-its-managed?level=1&data_ticket=1780940972364876

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#229

Post by throwaway67678 »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #226
throwaway67678 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, that's besides the point. So the state is an investor in DS, and? Many companies in Western capitalist economies receive initial state funding, especially startup grants. The real point to make is: does the state purposely fund the structural expenses of all those companies at a loss in an effort to undercut the competition and without which they would all go bankrupt and the cost of inference would be natural…

An angel investor is an investor who provides early-stage capital to startups and entrepreneurs in exchange for ownership equity. That is not a grant or initial state funding. That is ownership. There are very few examples, especially prior to Trump, of government ownership/stakes of public companies. But I will concede this: Due to the opaque nature of the Chinese economy to public scrutiny, we might never know. I a…

>That is not a grant or initial state funding. That is ownership. There are very few examples, especially prior to Trump, of government ownership/stakes of public companies.

Maybe not in the US (although Musk getting state subsidies comes to mind), but very common in Europe. Quite a few founder friends of mine have gotten started with state funding (through various R&D promoting agencies). Angel investing is not the only startup funding structure out there

Re: DeepSeek V4 Pro beats GPT-5.5 Pro on precision

#230

Post by philipallstar »

saurik wrote: post #217
philipallstar wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're inexpensive because they're derived from his creation.

The creation--which isn't "his" in the first place, by any standard definition--was not only itself "derived from" our creations but was always supposed to be "open".

> which isn't "his" in the first place, by any standard definition

I was saying that because of the previous comment:

> to Scam Altman's creation

It wasn't derived in the same way though - I can read loads of books and so can write my own book, but that's not derivation in the same way as the Deepseek's derivation.

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