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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#221

Post by Nicook »

reaperducer wrote: post #176
dismalaf wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta separatists would face the same challenges and take an equally dim view. This is complicated by the fact that First Nations themselves are highly stratified. They receive billions in dollars from the federal government with zero overs…

un-elected government officials and activist judges Does "activist judge" mean the same thing in Canada that it does in the United States: "Any judge who rules against my position?" Also: dismalaf Name checks out.

That's not what it means, but go off. Although yes it is generally used pejoratively, and if you are using the term, its for a rhetorical effect.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#222

Post by motohagiography »

Some modern precedents for countries established by peaceful legal secession include:

- Singapore (Malaysia) 1965

- Montenegro (Serbia) 2006

- Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia) 1993

- Iceland (Denmark) 1944

However, these are rare as most secession events are violent. Establishing a new country typically requires a revolution, and there is more support for that broadly in Canada for various reasons than any single province. The Alberta referendum is a polite signal and a test.

The boomer generation and it's broadly left politics is dying off, meaning that the LPC and NDP need to replenish their electoral support to stay in power. It is uncontroversial that they have been doing this using radical immigration policies and throwing money away, particularly via the abuse of definitions of "temporary," and "asylum." Political interference by both India (exporting their independence problem) and China (creating a resource vassal) is undeniable at this point. Canadians with a stake in the country are quite reasonably concerned that their society is being demolished and replaced.

Will they revolt, and could it succeed? It depends on whether they get US sponsorship or not. The more interesting question than the Alberta theater is whether Canada revolts and establishes a republic, or whether it gets annexed by the US or the EU. Alberta is just a canary for these other scenarios, imo.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#223

Post by michaelscott »

triceratops wrote: post #154
flossly wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider I like this idea of being able to vote yourself out. This is the ultimate test of a democracy, imho, that you can leave it democratically (by vote and not by force). We've seen some interesting cases of this, in Spain and in the Donbas of the last years. I think the outcome of people voting against it is a great outcome. You have the freedom. You paid for the vote (its expensive) and "they" did not win…

> As an outsider I like this idea of being able to vote yourself out "Voting with your feet" is an option available to almost everyone except North Koreans.

It's actually not available to most people that live in any third world country, otherwise migration would be significantly higher than it already is.

Regardless, "voting with your feet" is an individual action. Voting at home is a collective one, representing the will of not just you but the people from the place that you come from and were born into. Only one of those reflects the ideals of democracy, if that's really the ideal being strived for

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#224

Post by Fogest »

cwillu wrote: post #91
briga wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't think it's a thing then you're either not from here, or haven't been paying attention. The average Canadian's opinion of Alberta is also very telling, with most of the rest of the country seeming to despise the province, or think it's some sort of regressive backwater.

Meanwhile our Prime Minister was raised in Edmonton... No, it's not a thing.

You're being incredibly silly with your arguments. If you talk to anyone in the country outside of Alberta you're very likely to hear a negative tone when talking about them, especially if they are liberal. Our governments have very much fostered a hostile relationship with Alberta and has done very little to address their concerns. Anybody surprised by Alberta wanting out has had their head in the sand.

I don't think them leaving the country is the right solution, but this is what happens when people feel ignored for a long time, they go with the nuclear option of leaving. It's very clear that a lot of people in Alberta feel mistreated, and the governments should be working to hear their concerns and make changes. But sadly they seem to do the opposite and ignore them and continue to make negative remarks about them which furthers the problem.

In fact their behaviour is similar to the dismissive behaviour you have been showing in these replies to the other user.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#227

Post by harwoodr »

lm411 wrote: post #205
harwoodr wrote: post #186

It has been my experience that people always seem to want simple solutions to complex problems. The result is that the details of how complex those problems are get ignored or their impact is represented in a diminished way. In this case currency, debt, indigenous rights/claims and existing legislation are some examples of what is being glossed over and ignored.

Of these, I really only see "indigenous rights/claims" as a particularly difficult issue. For currency, The Maldives, with a relatively small population and tiny GDP has their own currency. What is the difficulty in currency? Ignoring the fact that AB would probably just use the greenback. All of these of these issues are surmountable.

I'll give you that currency isn't a huge issue. From what I recall, Quebec wanted to continue using the Canadian dollar if they separated.

If they opted to go with the USD, they'd have to trade all their CAD - which will undoubtedly take a huge hit if they separated.

I still think that separatists would say that Alberta doesn't have to deal with a share of the debt and that would be a sticking point.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#228

Post by BeetleB »

cactusplant7374 wrote: post #19
opjjf wrote: post #4

Investigate and imprison the people who are pushing this because of money received from the US.

I know of two people that moved away from Canada and consider themselves refugees for various reasons. It seems... a little out there. But it is a thing.

> But it is a thing.

On a per capita basis, 50x more Canadians move to the US than the other way round.

It's more than just a thing.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#230

Post by lm411 »

boringg wrote: post #208
nickff wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-Albertan, this seems like a great bargaining ploy to get some leverage against the Federal Government, just like Quebec did. Most political parties in Canada seem to ignore and exploit the West most of the time, whereas they treat Quebec (transfer payments) and the maritimes (oil revenues and employment insurance) much more thoughtfully.

Exploit the West? Thats rich and definitely a western centric short sighted viewpoint.

Many in the west certainly wouldn't agree with you now, or 100+ years ago.

https://xcancel.com/DonBraid/status/1187052993788559360

This is about more than just money though.

Politically the west is underrepresented and the cultural difference between the West and the rest of Canada is very significant - unless you ask folks from Ontario who have never been to AB. In my opinion, Canada is too geographically and culturally diverse for a central government to have so much power.

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