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Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

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Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#221

Post by Recurecur »

tzs wrote: post #165
tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

> After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense In some places in the US the hybrid can have lower energy costs per mile. Using the average price/kWh of residential electricity and the average price/gallon of gasoline in each US state as of maybe a year ago (I haven't updated my spreadsheet in a while) a Toyota Prius would beat my EV (which the sticker says is 129 MPGe city, 103 MP…

Plug-in hybrids also have their interesting use cases. If you do live in an area with cheap electricity, that 20-60 miles of electric-only driving can produce savings.

You also get regenerative braking with hybrids.

Until charging times get better at most chargers, many people will prefer the convenience of gas fillups.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#222

Post by wolvoleo »

don_esteban wrote: post #129
the_gastropod wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These problems are (imo) vastly overblown for the way most people drive. The only time the cold temperature reduced range / reduced charge speed are relevant is for long road trips where you’re driving > ~200mi at once. Otherwise, you just charge up at home overnight and easily recoup any normal driving range you used during the day, regardless of the temperature. Norwegians have apparently figured this out. Despite…

Norway is not damn cold. It sits next to a warm, Gulf-stream ocean. Rarely gets much ( Finland, that's another thing.

In those countries most people own a house so they can plug in every night.

Where I live it's all apartments (without parking because they were built before cars existed) and there's maybe one charging station on the street per 300 spaces or so. A few more in parking garages but you pay hundreds a month to access those.

I don't think an EV will work here until every space has a charger.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#223

Post by dghlsakjg »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #180
dghlsakjg wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium batteries perform terribly at that temperature and cannot be charged at all without permanent damage. They basically need to have a block heater hooked up to the battery if you ever want to charge.

It’s a solved problem and built into the car. You can do an AI lookup on Chinese EVs in Mohe/Harbin to get a summary of the tech they’ve developed.

Besides breathless or from universities, all I could find is articles like this (https://www.channelnewsasia.com/east-asia/china-electric-veh...) talking about the exact problem I described.

Can you stop hinting at things google can’t find, and just provide sources (not AI, since that is necessarily an unreliable secondary source)?

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#224

Post by ferongr »

Molitor5901 wrote: post #220
ferongr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few drops of superglue into the speaker should work wonders. Probably very easy to DIY on your driveway in a few minutes.

That's a really good idea. I only worry about invalidating a warranty. As soon as the dealer finds out..

You'd only invalidate the warranty of the speaker itself. Good riddance.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#225

Post by the_gastropod »

wolvoleo wrote: post #222
don_esteban wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is not damn cold. It sits next to a warm, Gulf-stream ocean. Rarely gets much ( Finland, that's another thing.

In those countries most people own a house so they can plug in every night. Where I live it's all apartments (without parking because they were built before cars existed) and there's maybe one charging station on the street per 300 spaces or so. A few more in parking garages but you pay hundreds a month to access those. I don't think an EV will work here until every space has a charger.

Sounds like you might live in a sensible place where you probably don’t need a car at all. That’s the ideal! Unfortunately, much of, e.g., the U.S. (outside of ~4 cities), “cities” are built around individual car ownership. There, where a car is pretty much necessary, and you likely already have a dedicated spot to store it, it often makes sense to choose an EV version.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#226

Post by red369 »

redwall_hp wrote: post #155
em500 wrote: post #11

So this is specifically about Toyota's hybrid engines (which is very different from e.g. Honda's engine, not to mention plug-in hybrids or "mild hybrids"). The explanation of the mechanics starts around the 36 minute mark. I always found most explanations of Toyota's Power Split Device too abstract, until I found this page where you can play with the sliders to see how the power is actually split between the ICE and…

The Prius model is basically how the new Honda hybrid power train works. (I'm gearing up to buy a new Civic once my insurance gets me my payout.) It has a two motor system (traction and generator) coupled to an Atkinson cycle engine with a planetary gearbox. However, it's a 2L engine and the whole thing puts down 200hp, netting acceleration that beats a Civic SI and ~50 miles per gallon. They first trialed it in Japa…

Hmm - I’m not an expert on this, but I thought the e:HEV system was quite different.

More like an engine connected to a single very long gear (like top gear), to avoid converting from physical motion to electricity and back to physical motion, at motorway speeds. And also a clutch, to disconnect that system completely, in which case the combustion engine can drive a generator, and send electricity to another motor driving the wheels. Plus there’s a battery involved, and the motors can assist or regen when the physical drivetrain is connected.

It’s all very cool, and I expect even more efficient than the Toyota system on the open road, but a little less during city driving. I can go into why I think that, but I’m not even sure I’m right :)

https://global.honda/en/tech/two_motor_hybrid_system_honda_e...

Edit: I just wanted to add, that Civic with this drivetrain always seemed like a good choice.

I’ve tried to test-drive a Honda with this setup twice. Once the dealer misunderstood me and I drove some boring mild-hybrid CVT Insight or something. I would have even been happy trying out the dual-clutch hybrid they were using in some models then. I’d already driven their mild hybrid a few times. It got good mileage, but not as good as Toyota’s system, and didn’t have anything else going for it. The second time I hadn’t realised that they didn’t even bring this Civic into the country. We drove the regular CVT anyway, but it was a huge disappointment, knowing other countries had the e:HEV.

2nd edit: I incorrectly called the combustion engine “the motor”, which is something I do all the time, but need to avoid when talking about hybrids

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#227

Post by darknavi »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #153
darknavi wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely different than raod tripping in an ICE. We road trip in our Model Y and end up stopping often regardless of charging for snacking, stretching, walking the dogs, etc. I remember talking to a coworker would couldn't accept taking 10 hours to drive somewhere instead of the 8.5 hours you can make it in an ICE. But then again we are definitely people who puts on road trips.

The ratio has been way worse than that in my experience, especially in cold weather. Could easily turn a 3 hour trip from Seattle to Portland to 5-6 hours during winter, when mileage plummets on the freeway. Obviously part of that is that the EV wasn't fully charged when we started, but that's the thing -- being low on gas for an ICE car barely affects travel at all.

I guess it depends on the EV. We one-shot Seattle to Portland because it's only ~180 miles. I can't imagine spending 2-3 hours charging on that trip.

We'll spend ~20-30 minutes charging on the way home but that's it.

Now if we're talking about the traffic in Tacoma or around JBLM that's a different story!

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#228

Post by red369 »

redwall_hp wrote: post #155
em500 wrote: post #11

So this is specifically about Toyota's hybrid engines (which is very different from e.g. Honda's engine, not to mention plug-in hybrids or "mild hybrids"). The explanation of the mechanics starts around the 36 minute mark. I always found most explanations of Toyota's Power Split Device too abstract, until I found this page where you can play with the sliders to see how the power is actually split between the ICE and…

The Prius model is basically how the new Honda hybrid power train works. (I'm gearing up to buy a new Civic once my insurance gets me my payout.) It has a two motor system (traction and generator) coupled to an Atkinson cycle engine with a planetary gearbox. However, it's a 2L engine and the whole thing puts down 200hp, netting acceleration that beats a Civic SI and ~50 miles per gallon. They first trialed it in Japa…

Just in case, this video has more detail than you're likely to want on how the E:HEV works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLUIExAnNcE

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#229

Post by tomaskafka »

tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

“Just get an EV” is the “let them eat cake” in disguise.

If I had a house and could charge EV at home, and had 1-2 kids, I might consider Tesla. Public charging has iterated roughly to what gasoline costs (because that’s what people are willing to pay), and once you need 5 full seats, there is just a handful of options, and they (eg. Kia EV9) easily costs 3x more than lightly used MPV of a same size.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#230

Post by TulliusCicero »

darknavi wrote: post #227
TulliusCicero wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ratio has been way worse than that in my experience, especially in cold weather. Could easily turn a 3 hour trip from Seattle to Portland to 5-6 hours during winter, when mileage plummets on the freeway. Obviously part of that is that the EV wasn't fully charged when we started, but that's the thing -- being low on gas for an ICE car barely affects travel at all.

I guess it depends on the EV. We one-shot Seattle to Portland because it's only ~180 miles. I can't imagine spending 2-3 hours charging on that trip. We'll spend ~20-30 minutes charging on the way home but that's it. Now if we're talking about the traffic in Tacoma or around JBLM that's a different story!

> We'll spend ~20-30 minutes charging on the way home but that's it.

Just getting off the freeway and back onto it will add ~10 minutes to a trip, and that's assuming the charger is fairly close to the exit, and that you don't have to wait at the charger for an open spot.

> I can't imagine spending 2-3 hours charging on that trip.

Note that "Time that charging requires != time spent charging". If you have to wait for a spot to open up at a charging station, that's not charging time exactly, but it is something that charging occasionally demands of you.

But yeah it fucking sucked. The combination of low temps and freeway speeds tanked our mileage down to like ~50% of the theoretical EPA estimate, and the ID4 seemed to charge pretty slowly too at the Electrify America stations.

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