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Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

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221–230 of 248 posts

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s unactionable, just as one example, sadly investing in Northern Europe on a long time frame is pretty risky as a result of this. There is and should be pressure to decarbonise at this point - it is still going to help and we can vote to make that happen. Tyrants like Putin want you to think you are powerless, but you are not.

Writing news articles that desensitize the public has the opposite effect of empowering them. Moreover, it's not an article that's written in a way that changes anyone's mind. If you're a climate denier (of whatever flavor) you're not going to be persuaded by this article or any other like it. In fact, it might make you more staunch.

The truth has power. Never give up on wanting to know the truth.

As to staunch climate deniers, why should we care what they think? The changing world around them (e.g. Florida flooding) will persuade them even if the majority who do believe in it doesn’t first.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how many similar things have happened in the past but nobody noticed because nobody was looking or even knew how to track such a thing We can actually make petty good estimates because of things like carbon layers in the ice. It's happened in the past, you're right, and usually it precedes large scale extinction events.

so because a current in the ocean is changing we should tell everyone they might be about to die or what’s the goal here

The "goal" of science is understanding. I'm not sure what your issue with it is.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#223
post #23

I think climate change is a compelling crisis but I find these types of “could maybe happen according to some models” type of catastrophic scenarios a little frustrating because they soak up a lot of attention with scary headlines, reinforcing hopelessness in those who care while providing ammunition to skeptics when the catastrophe doesn’t materialize. It’s also easy to question methodology for anyone who has done a…

So many of those 'could maybe happen' are, in fact, happening right now. The researcher is also quoted as saying 'more likely than not' which is pretty big when it comes to something like the AMOC shutting down. This really is catastrophic and really should be causing governments to take immediate, massive, steps to avert it including steps to sanction countries that are causing it.

I guess all those goverment actions should limit freedom of individuals more and more. Excellent strategy for tyranny.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#224
post #23

I think climate change is a compelling crisis but I find these types of “could maybe happen according to some models” type of catastrophic scenarios a little frustrating because they soak up a lot of attention with scary headlines, reinforcing hopelessness in those who care while providing ammunition to skeptics when the catastrophe doesn’t materialize. It’s also easy to question methodology for anyone who has done a…

Frightened mind is easily manipulated. For limit freedom of individuals, control masses and so on.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many of those 'could maybe happen' are, in fact, happening right now. The researcher is also quoted as saying 'more likely than not' which is pretty big when it comes to something like the AMOC shutting down. This really is catastrophic and really should be causing governments to take immediate, massive, steps to avert it including steps to sanction countries that are causing it.

I guess all those goverment actions should limit freedom of individuals more and more. Excellent strategy for tyranny.

What do you mean? What kind of limiting of your freedom are you afraid of regarding steps that should be taken to avoid this?

I fear we need some government imposed limitations. Hoping that every individual will do the right thing doesn't really work it seems.

Or do you mean the policies should affect companies more so than individuals? In that case I agree fully.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#226
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get what's with all the China fanboys here. China is increasing it's CO2 output quite a bit. And for completeness, so is India. For both countries the CO2 output is bad enough that it's not just adding to global warming, but this coal plant smoke what's causing the famous smog in Beijing and New Delhi. It's causing breathing problems, cancer, ... in their population.

They demonstrably are not. https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-co2-emissions-ha... https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-indias-co2-emissions-in...

First: look at the CO2 graph for China. That's not falling in any reasonable definition of a word, that's called "flat", even if it is technically less than before.

Second: it's normal for graphs to fall off in their last 1-5 data points because measurements are still coming in.

Third: it's using Chinese data. China has, by the way, publicly declared that they're lying about all public economic data. Please don't use Sinopec data to argue your point.

https://www.iea.org/countries/china/emissions

China CO2 emissions are rising fast.

Second: India's CO2 emissions are growing according to the article you posted.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#227
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess all those goverment actions should limit freedom of individuals more and more. Excellent strategy for tyranny.

What do you mean? What kind of limiting of your freedom are you afraid of regarding steps that should be taken to avoid this? I fear we need some government imposed limitations. Hoping that every individual will do the right thing doesn't really work it seems. Or do you mean the policies should affect companies more so than individuals? In that case I agree fully.

I believe law cannot teach behaviour. Education, dialogue, trust, transparency could. Any kind of centralised regulations and governance do more harm than good. Cognitive shame and collective guilt killed millions in 20th century, we should learn from it.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many of those 'could maybe happen' are, in fact, happening right now. The researcher is also quoted as saying 'more likely than not' which is pretty big when it comes to something like the AMOC shutting down. This really is catastrophic and really should be causing governments to take immediate, massive, steps to avert it including steps to sanction countries that are causing it.

I guess all those goverment actions should limit freedom of individuals more and more. Excellent strategy for tyranny.

>I guess all those goverment actions should limit freedom of individuals more and more. Excellent strategy for tyranny.

...what?? Are you ok with murder and theft as well and whine about how laws against that limit your freedom and are "tyranny"? It's a pretty basic tenet of any groups of humans that's it's fully compatible with freedom to have limits on the extent to which people can cause harm to others. As with all complex dynamic things there are very debatable shades of gray at the edges, but total anarchy objectively does not work.

And it's a fundamental to a functional Free Market that costs be internalized, not externalized. Producers and consumers determine value and generate wealth by comparing the total price of production to the utility offered, but that only works if (amongst other things) the sticker price really is the total price (or at least quite close). If a producer is able to stick their costs onto others then their product will be artificially cheap even if they are less efficient, which will warp the market. That's what we are seeing in energy: fossil fuel producers are dumping cost (in terms of, global warming, ocean acidification, and other forms of pollution) onto the present and future world that they don't have to pay, artificially depressing the cost and alternative solutions that would be net more productive. We could for example be far along on the path of wind and solar power, with enough excess to generate net neutral synthetic hydrocarbons using atmospheric CO2 and water that could then be used in applications like jet engines where they might remain superior.

But the whole point is the market would then be able to determine that naturally, the cost would be built into the price so where and when syngas vs electric vs whatever else provided the best value could emerge. That's not "tyranny", to the extent there is tyranny in the market it's in allowing selfish actors to ruin other people's lives with pollution and preventing those harmed from retaliating.

Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#229
post #171
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Medical doctors literally advise their patients on that and evaluate the effects of actions with respect to what's good and what's bad for their health. You're talking about a consultant now. Yes, consultants take scientific understanding and help translate it into what the customer wants to hear: doing their best to interpret what the other person is likely to think is "good" or "bad". Which, I will add, is not ab…

I really don't get you stance. Of course, you can make more fine-grained distinctions and that's fine. You can claim that medical doctors act as medical scientists when they conduct studies and as doctors (consultants) in their practice with patients. But that doesn't mean the value judgments aren't part of the science. If a seismologist has evidence that an earthquake is likely to occur in a certain area, should the…

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Re: Scientists warn Atlantic current at risk of shutting down

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has made huge efforts toward sustainable power. Google it. The us on the other hand is well you know blowing up oil all over the world with military conflicts that are wars but aren't wars but are wars that are over but evolving and over and evolving. They are also rolling back green energy projects , fueling data centers with gas, etc.

> China has made huge efforts toward sustainable power. Google it. While also increasing carbon-emissions. China is investing in creating more energy from every source.

When is the last time you checked the statement you just made for truthfulness? All sources I've seen for years is decreased carbon emissions and stabilized output.
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