United Wizards of the Coast • Hacker News Board

Re: United Wizards of the Coast

#221

Post by scoofy » Tue, Apr 28, 2026, 6:36 PM UTC

bwestergard wrote: post #219

scoofy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are complicated. Generally speaking they are good for workers, but when they start focusing on job security over compensation and build in seniority-based advantages, the leverage unions have can be wielded against consumers and fellow workers, not just against employers. “Unions are unequivocally good” is about as naive as “unions are unequivocally bad.” It’s always a question of how the union prioritizes the…

Do you have a particular historic incident in mind? In what national context was this taking place? There have been very few incidents where a union successfully defended its particularistic interest in a way that harmed the interests of working people generally in the long term. Employers' associations have characterized union activity this way even when the unions were objectively losing ground in every way (e.g. d…

The advent of parallel treatment of different workers in a shop the late 1970's is one of the main reasons we saw union membership start declining. Two-tiered bargaining structures started to show up as soon as there were difficult economic headwinds. When one segment of the union with some seniority is unwilling to make sacrifices for the younger generations, you end up with as system that is bad for non-trivial number of workers, and is literally the opposite of meritocratic. Solidarity only goes as far as "I've got mine" for many folks, and when that happens, the union as a way of protecting workers turns into a vehicle for extracting concessions at the expense of others.

Examples of ruinous two-tiered contracts include UFCW's 1978 contract, Teamsters' 1979 contract, UAW's 1979 contract and their 2007 contract.

Re: United Wizards of the Coast

#222

Post by bb88 » Tue, Apr 28, 2026, 11:31 PM UTC

scoofy wrote: post #209

bb88 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is noted. But unions have never existed in a vacuum. And without the context of why they came about, that is from corporations abusing employees, it's easy to say "Unions are complex" when the world in which they exist is far more complex than unions are and perhaps far more vile.

I'm generally pro-union. Don't think that just because I criticize them that I don't think they're generally a good idea. The problems I'm pointing to are general problems of democracy in general. Incumbents tend to ignore future generations well-beings when it comes to current generations ability to negotiate. The point I'm trying to respond to is: "This thread is filled with so many anti-union takes that you have t…

No argument from me, other than: All those things can be also be said about corporations.

You brought up lamplighters and the electric lightbulb. It's worth noting that corporations had a cartel that prevented lightbulbs from running longer than a few years. And to some extent that still happens.

Big Clive did a good video on the Dubai Lamp a few years back, and why you can't buy them anywhere but in Dubai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4

Re: United Wizards of the Coast

#223

Post by BizarroLand » Tue, Apr 28, 2026, 11:55 PM UTC

tjwebbnorfolk wrote: post #220

BizarroLand wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any time people want to unionize, it's good for the customers even if it means the business goes under. Sure, they won't get to be customers any longer if that happens, but at least it will increase the likelihood that the products they have available are not the cause of other people's suffering.

> it's good for the customers even if it means the business goes under Ok then I'm just not flexible enough to do the mental gymnastics involved in understanding this statement.

Pretty simple. If the only way McDonalds could make burgers to sell you was by abusing farm animals to do it, in manners far in excess of modern farming practices, wouldn't you agree that it is better that McDonald's went out of business?

I feel that way about any business that can only survive by underpaying their employees. I would rather have the business not exist than to enjoy affordable goods that only exist because of excessive exploitation.

Re: United Wizards of the Coast

#224

Post by wredcoll » Wed, Apr 29, 2026, 9:52 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #215

wredcoll wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very obvious reason that corporations are “worse” is simply that they have more leverage. The idea that “leverage is likely to be abused” is a much more thoughtful heuristic for the paradigm. If you enjoy thought terminating clichés, I suppose. Corporations, in general , have a very different set incentives and ways they can wield power and ways that people outside of their power structures can interact with th…

It’s a plausible take that the best government in human history (say Sweden) is worse than the worst corporation. Sweden had an active eugenics program.

I fail to see the plausibility. Afterall, the east indies corporation existed.

Re: United Wizards of the Coast

#225

Post by dash2 » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 10:53 AM UTC

wredcoll wrote: post #224

dash2 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a plausible take that the best government in human history (say Sweden) is worse than the worst corporation. Sweden had an active eugenics program.

I fail to see the plausibility. Afterall, the east indies corporation existed.

I don't know much about that case, but isn't it stretching the boundary between "corporation" and "government"?

Re: United Wizards of the Coast

#226

Post by bwestergard » Thu, May 07, 2026, 3:22 PM UTC

scoofy wrote: post #221

bwestergard wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a particular historic incident in mind? In what national context was this taking place? There have been very few incidents where a union successfully defended its particularistic interest in a way that harmed the interests of working people generally in the long term. Employers' associations have characterized union activity this way even when the unions were objectively losing ground in every way (e.g. d…

The advent of parallel treatment of different workers in a shop the late 1970's is one of the main reasons we saw union membership start declining. Two-tiered bargaining structures started to show up as soon as there were difficult economic headwinds. When one segment of the union with some seniority is unwilling to make sacrifices for the younger generations, you end up with as system that is bad for non-trivial num…

No disagreement from me there. I am a stalwart financial and activist supporter of LaborNotes, which organizes across unions to eliminate two-tier contracts.

But two-tier contracts are the result of employer power. Employers always portray them as an inevitable outcome of the legal form of collective bargaining; the historical record cannot sustain this reading.

The solution to two tier is more powerful unions, which are inherently more democratic unions, because wage workers only have leverage if they act in concert.