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Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

bloomberg.com

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Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#221

Post by bigbadfeline »

foobiekr wrote: post #136
dfxm12 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please take a beat to think about how this would be implemented (it looks like it's not decided at this time) before reflexively saying "good" because the marketing sounds nice. This is how the US got swindled into accepting the PATRIOT act, et al. There are problems with social media, yes. However, these problems exist for children and adults. A reasonable way to tackle this issue would be to make social media safer…

There are problems with cigarettes, yes. However, these problems exist for children _and_ adults. A reasonable way to tackle this issue would be to make cigarettes safer for everyone, not just to exclude kids. These problems are not solved with an age check ... You may or may not be acting as an apologist for the sleaziest, worst industry on earth here, but you certainly sound like it, even if it is unintentional. As…

You aren't following the news - adult smoking is being outlawed in the UK as we speak - so, your analogy is against you position but supports the person you're criticizing.

More importantly, smoking is a well defined activity but "social media" is anything but - using your analogy, "social media" can be everything from milk to veges to plain water - all of which you want to ban because they're all sold in the same stores where cigarettes are sold. In other words - starve the kids.

Further, school and legacy media can be more toxic than a well designed social media site for kids - vague bans leave the door open to legacy toxicity while closing it to web-based media that could counter the bad sources.

It's far better to focus on toxicity, identify what is "smoking" and what not, regardless of where the "tobacco" might be hidden. After some consensus is achieved, go after the providers, the same way the tobacco companies were sued onto oblivion.

Why do so many people go after the kids instead of after the providers? Too chicken to take on the big ones?

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#222

Post by SamDc73 »

braiamp wrote: post #202
softwaredoug wrote: post #193

I feel like education, not abstinence, is the way forward. Prohibition doesn’t work. Educating consumers and holding companies accountable works. It historically takes time though for that pressure to accumulate to the point of having political will. We also need teen social media education - like we have about alcohol and drugs. Where we’re frank about the real research. Don’t moralize. Talk about the realities of t…

No, educating customers doesn't work. What works is creating safe products. Remove algorithm recommendations as the default option, make collecting personal individual data for any purpose other than what the customer explicitly wants, and you will see that suddenly "social networks" and every other product becomes safe to use for everyone.

It's the war on drugs all over again ...

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#223

Post by pembrook »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #212
pembrook wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the astroturfing in favour of social media couldn't possibly change my mind What astroturfing? This is the most popular moral panic of our times. Yours is the default normie position...basically what is leading to all this poorly thought out legislation being emotionally shouted by the mob into existence. Just so you're aware, all the worst laws are the ones created when the populace has been emotionally riled…

> The funniest part of all of it is the "social media" that millennials think they're saving their children from doesn't even exist anymore. All the dominant platforms of today are not based on the social graph. Nobody is getting bullied on their timeline or seeing all the parties they weren't invited to anymore. I think in recent years the infinite scroll of auto-generated content that bamboozles your brain is consi…

I don't disagree that engagement-based algorithms are a real issue, but most of the legislation being proposed on this topic has nothing to do with that.

It's all motivated around the idea of there being a "teen mental health epidemic from social media" (which has very little support in the recent academic literature).

It's all worries about the 2010s era social graph driven by Jonathan Haidt's 8 year old podcast book tour...nobody wants to acknowledge the social graph doesn't even exist anymore!

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#224

Post by retired »

spacedoutman wrote: post #55

They tried this in australia, now more kids than ever are on social media.

The problem in Australia is that influencers and musicians are still allowed on social media regardless of age, as they have professionally managed accounts. So the result is that poor children in Australia don't have access to social media and that rich kids just hire an agency to represent them.

The Australian government should fix that.

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#225

Post by AnonymousPlanet »

sunaookami wrote: post #129

This sudden coordinated worldwide effort to ban social media for kids (hint: it's not because of the kids) needs to stop, it's dangerous and people need to stop being so naive and stop supporting this.

Seeing how surprisingly similar the wording and definitions are in every case, in even far flung societies, can send you a shiver down the spine. It's like someone gained unfettered world wide write access to legislation.

It's also interesting how Windows 11 with it's hard dependency on TPM hardware just happens to be in place at the right time. And how a certain former Microsoft employee just happened to start working on a similar solution for Linux before this all started https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#226

Post by pibaker »

pjc50 wrote: post #140
foobiekr wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it really is the 14-21 group that where it has the most (and increasing) influence. They should have banned it for under 18.

I'd prefer a ban for the over 65s, who are especially vulnerable.

It will never happen because 65 yos vote and people under 18 cannot vote.

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#227

Post by barbazoo »

dfxm12 wrote: post #152
barbazoo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question, how is it different than tobacco, driving, alcohol, all the things we gate by age for what seem to be valid reasons?

First, tobacco and alcohol companies absolutely are regulated. Second, traditionally the age gate for cigarettes and booze is for the seller to look at your ID just to verify your age, then forget you. The process was not to establish your identity and follow you around forever, tracking and selling your behavioral data , which is a way these Internet based age gates have been implemented, and the logical conclusion…

> traditionally the age gate for cigarettes and booze is for the seller to look at your ID just to verify your age, then forget you. The process was not to establish your identity and follow you around forever, tracking and selling your behavioral data, which is a way these Internet based age gates have been implemented

I think that's a bit of a strawman, there exist solutions to this problem that decouple who reads the ID from the party that needs information about it, e.g. being above a certain age. Maybe it matters here how it's implemented, can that be regulated?

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#229

Post by kdheiwns »

We can't even get countries to agree on a unified drinking age, but somehow the whole world is simultaneously coming to the conclusion that you need to be 16 to use social media, and websites and operating systems all need North Korean ID verification to prove you're over 16. There is a zero percent chance this is organic

Re: Norway set to become latest country to ban social media for under 16s

#230

Post by AlanYx »

tzs wrote: post #146
fsflover wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does HN count, or is the actual problem the algorithmic feeds?

I can't read the article so don't know if they give enough details on the Norway law to tell, but most of the other countries or states with such laws prohibit specific practices that are very common on social media sites. If you site does those things it is covered. If it does not, it is not covered. HN is usually not covered. For example New York's law covers sites with an "addictive feed", and defines "addictive f…

New York's definition is one of the most detailed. The Australian definition on the other hand probably includes Hacker News because it includes both "a logged-in feature" and "endless feed" and the fact that posts move off the home page probably falls under "time-limited features". Perhaps some legal interpretation will find that paging is not legally "endless feed", but I could see it going either way. The definition basically is written so that blogs with comment sections aren't included, but with quite an expansive scope otherwise.
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