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The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

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Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#221

Post by Galanwe »

CGMthrowaway wrote: post #38
sqircles wrote: post #20

I have recently deepened my search in Christianity which started with the Catholic Church, one of few points I struggle with when it comes to Catholicism is the papacy, and the Avignon Papacy debacle and the events that followed (a la Western Schism) has quite a bit to do with that. I was a little confused by what they meant here by “threatening with the Avignon Papacy.” If anyone else is curious, I think the phrase…

There's way too much misdirected emphasis on the pope and ecclesiastical hierarchy imo. I wouldn't think too hard about it. You can be catholic and not like the pope just the same as you can be french and not like the king. Or american and not like the president. There is only one divinity on earth today and that's the holy spirit (consubstantial with the father and son), indwelling and guiding humanity on many level…

> You can be catholic and not like the pope

You can be christian and not like the pope.

But to catholics, the pope is the terrestrial embodiment of the holy spirit, and as such considered infaillible. Not recognizing the pope as such is incompatible with catholicism.

Papacy is a core part of catholicism, it's not a "pick and choose buffet".

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#222

Post by benlivengood »

anonu wrote: post #50

There is a lot to source from Christian ideals, many of which are the foundations of Western culture: human dignity, moral equality, conscience, limits on power and care for those less fortunate and weaker. Much of what is happening in the world today feels like a stark reversal of those ideals: selfishness and divisiveness manufactured to promote a narrow segment of society. Recent news articles have indicated an in…

I think what actually happened is that the Enlightenment comprehensively developed the concept of natural rights and the Christians were like "well, we're not beating that with divine right of kings, better adopt it as the thing God did all along".

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#223

Post by bluGill »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #147
bluGill wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this purpose identify is enough - as anyone who identifies will be horrified even if they otherwise don't care about the church. Many non-Catholics (including non-Christians) are also horrified even though they otherwise don't care about what the pope says at all.

I don't think supporters of the current US president would be horrified. They already support his anti-christian behavior, and seem more interested in being part of that group than they are in the religion itself. More likely he would just assert that the Pope isn't actually the Pope, and thus any excommunications are void, and his supporters would roll with it. Some of them already believe this. Any words, true or f…

Sure, but that is at most 25% of Americans. The rest are conditional in some way if they even support him at all.

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#224

Post by sqircles »

Galanwe wrote: post #221
CGMthrowaway wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's way too much misdirected emphasis on the pope and ecclesiastical hierarchy imo. I wouldn't think too hard about it. You can be catholic and not like the pope just the same as you can be french and not like the king. Or american and not like the president. There is only one divinity on earth today and that's the holy spirit (consubstantial with the father and son), indwelling and guiding humanity on many level…

> You can be catholic and not like the pope You can be christian and not like the pope. But to catholics, the pope is the terrestrial embodiment of the holy spirit, and as such considered infaillible. Not recognizing the pope as such is incompatible with catholicism. Papacy is a core part of catholicism, it's not a "pick and choose buffet".

> and as such considered infaillible

This is a common misconception. The pope is only considered as speaking infallibly by the Catholic Church when speaking ex cathedra on matter of faith and morals. This is very rare and is considered to only have happened twice in history.

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#225

Post by sqircles »

fhdkweig wrote: post #196
CGMthrowaway wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's way too much misdirected emphasis on the pope and ecclesiastical hierarchy imo. I wouldn't think too hard about it. You can be catholic and not like the pope just the same as you can be french and not like the king. Or american and not like the president. There is only one divinity on earth today and that's the holy spirit (consubstantial with the father and son), indwelling and guiding humanity on many level…

> You can be catholic and not like the pope I come from a Protestant background, so I view Catholicism as just Protestants with a pope. What does it mean to be catholic but without a pope?

You cannot be in full communion with the Catholic Church and not submit to the papal office.

Catholics owe the Pope religious submission of intellect and will to his authentic magisterium (teaching authority) on faith and morals, even when not speaking infallibly (Lumen Gentium 25; CCC 892; Code of Canon Law, can. 752). This is a respectful adherence and presumption in favor of what he teaches officially as Pope. This does not extend to his personal opinions, private theological views, prudential judgments (e.g., on politics, economics, or administrative decisions), or liking him as a person or agreeing with everything he says or does in a non-magisterial capacity.

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#226

Post by Galanwe »

sqircles wrote: post #224
Galanwe wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can be catholic and not like the pope You can be christian and not like the pope. But to catholics, the pope is the terrestrial embodiment of the holy spirit, and as such considered infaillible. Not recognizing the pope as such is incompatible with catholicism. Papacy is a core part of catholicism, it's not a "pick and choose buffet".

> and as such considered infaillible This is a common misconception. The pope is only considered as speaking infallibly by the Catholic Church when speaking ex cathedra on matter of faith and morals. This is very rare and is considered to only have happened twice in history.

I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out, very interesting!

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#227

Post by CamperBob2 »

colechristensen wrote: post #108
toyg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not taking these people seriously is how we got here. Please stop making that mistake. These people are insane.

The president can threaten to wipe out a civilization without any meaningful repercussions. I'm calling them idiots, which they are. No doubt if they thought it wouldn't cause excessive embarrassment anxiety in the president they'd try to murder the pope.

They are idiots with nuclear weapons and a complete lock on all three branches of government.

They are also immune to embarrassment.

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#229

Post by sqircles »

CGMthrowaway wrote: post #113
sqircles wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your comment and I understand. My struggles are not about whether or not I like the man who is in the seat.

Another example for you.. Rather than donate money to the church, I donate my time and talent instead. In that way it is focused 100% on my local parish. Another one, I develop my relationship with god in a way that is helped by worship through the church, but is not dependent on it. There are loads of times where the "leadership" of the church leaves something to be desired, yet the progress of gods kindgom marches…

> I develop my relationship with god in a way that is helped by worship through the church, but is not dependent on it.

The Church certainly disagrees with you, teaching that the visible Church is the ordinary means of salvation and full communion with Christ. (see the Precepts, CCC ~846–848)

Re: The Pentagon Threatened Pope Leo XIV's Ambassador with the Avignon Papacy

#230

Post by CamperBob2 »

layer8 wrote: post #126
kubb wrote: post #48

What is tiresome is how sincerely these people insist on being able to make everyone act according to their will, while simultaneously displaying weakness, incompetence, and extreme pettiness. Trying to threaten people into respecting them. The lack of class is just so unsightly.

It’s still much preferable to them being strong and competent in subduing everyone to their will.

That comes later.
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