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Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

theguardian.com

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Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#221

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ericmay wrote: post #219
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries don’t have a product to sell without protectionism. Look at Australia, a first word country by any measure but without an auto industry to protect has wholly embraced Chinese EVs.

Could you summarize your larger point? I'm starting to get lost in what exactly we're talking about - my fault.

China is creating and making markets where they are allowed to create/make markets. The western auto manufacturers are turtling up via protectionism, and they are no longer aiming to compete on their products.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#222

Post by drcongo »

simonw wrote: post #90

The other day I was joking with friends about how I'd love to have a car with a deployable surveillance drone to help with parking and so if I'm stuck in traffic I could have my drone scout ahead and see what's up. Turns out BYD have one of those already! https://www.theverge.com/news/622963/byd-dji-vehicle-mounted...

Get a deposit down on the Xpeng AeroHT! https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/xpeng-land-aircr...

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#223

Post by sjducb »

DennisP wrote: post #117
thyristan wrote: post #31

Western car makers learned the hard lesson that, at least in most of Europe, electricity prices are far too high, EV prices are too high, and customers do know how to use their calculators. In Germany, the only thing propping up the EV market are tax subsidies for commercially used EVs, so company cars are very likely to be EV or at least hybrid. For the rest of sales? Only idealists buy EVs, and then only those with…

Electricity costs more in Europe than the US, but so does gasoline, by about the same ratio. EVs in the US have lower running costs than internal combustion cars. The EV industry in general is growing quite well in Europe. It's just that China is capturing the biggest share of that growth.

EVs are more expensive in total.

The Volvo XC90 EV is about 90k the petrol equivalent is 60k

Then if you drive 100,000 miles in it you’ll spend £20,000 on petrol.

100000 miles / 32 mpg = 3125 gal 3125 × 4.546 L = 14206 L 14206 L × £1.45/L = £20598.70 ≈ £20.6k total petrol cost

Even with free electricity petrol wins on cost.

If you buy the car used then the story changes.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#224

Post by cmurphycode »

campl3r wrote: post #171
thyristan wrote: post #31

Western car makers learned the hard lesson that, at least in most of Europe, electricity prices are far too high, EV prices are too high, and customers do know how to use their calculators. In Germany, the only thing propping up the EV market are tax subsidies for commercially used EVs, so company cars are very likely to be EV or at least hybrid. For the rest of sales? Only idealists buy EVs, and then only those with…

I'd love to see that math

https://cmurphycode.com/electricity

Not Europe, but unfortunately, my state of Massachusetts has terrible electric costs for complicated reasons, so I understand what the OP is saying. I had to keep explaining this to my friends in MA - I replaced a Prius with a Nissan Leaf and my running costs are far higher.

(note that these prices are yearly averages for the state selected, but you can also fill in your own values since things change)

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#227

Post by ErroneousBosh »

simonw wrote: post #90

The other day I was joking with friends about how I'd love to have a car with a deployable surveillance drone to help with parking and so if I'm stuck in traffic I could have my drone scout ahead and see what's up. Turns out BYD have one of those already! https://www.theverge.com/news/622963/byd-dji-vehicle-mounted...

> The other day I was joking with friends about how I'd love to have a car with a deployable surveillance drone to help with parking and so if I'm stuck in traffic I could have my drone scout ahead and see what's up.

The Yutong electric buses that Ember use around where I live have something like this but I guess it just uses the cameras mounted around the bus. When the driver closes the door, the central screen on the dashboard does a kind "fake drone flyaround" of the bus, even showing reasonably realistic depictions of vehicles on the road around it.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#228

Post by themafia »

padjo wrote: post #200
M0r13n wrote: post #82

I've had a rough time with the last two EVs I've owned. I bought a Honda e in 2020 because of its retro-future charm, but ended up being disappointed by several things: - the range was miserable - the software quality was bad - no OTA updates ever (despite Honda's promises) - slow charging - poor public charging infrastructure in Germany I should have known that a 35 kW battery wouldn't deliver great range or chargin…

You're making me very happy with my decision in 2021 to resist the appealing design of the Honda and buy an id3 with a reasonably sized battery. Also your in winter are you running the heater constantly? I find just dressing for outdoors, leaving the heater off and using heated seats/wheel means I only lose maybe 15% range.

> are you running the heater constantly?

Something every car prior to this has been able to do without any impact on performance.

> means I only lose maybe 15% range.

Which could be a reasonable sacrifice if you choose to make it. It's certainly not included in the marketing for these vehicles.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#229

Post by ErroneousBosh »

galangalalgol wrote: post #57
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US American car marques are nearly completely irrelevant outside the US.

Ive seen plenty of fords in Europe but they have evs

Fords in Europe are made a little to the north-east of London, or near Cologne.

They have (almost) nothing to do with North American Ford vehicles.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#230

Post by speedgoose »

tw-20260303-001 wrote: post #204
speedgoose wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should I include the cost of the current wars?

Go on then.

Per my calculations, EVs are cheaper over the whole vehicle lifetime. I included construction costs and usage costs, in terms of money, environmental impact, and health impacts.

Of course, no cars is even better. If we could all ski, cycle, or run, it would be even cheaper and better for our health. It’s a trade of.

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