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How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

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Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#221

Post by wesleyd »

arnok wrote: post #212
wesleyd wrote: post #185

Gas pumps in the US are artificially capped at 10 gallons per minute, and a gallon of gasoline is about 33kWh, so petrol cars in the US “charge” at 330kWh/min ~= 20MW. But most cars only turn about a third of that into motion, so let’s say 7MW equivalent? While BYD’s 1.5MW is amazing, it seems a stretch to call it “almost as fast as gas pumps.” Diesel pumps for trucks typically pump much faster too. And diesel is nea…

I think you are 3 orders of magnitude off in your airplane energy calculation. 3,168,750kWh = 3 GWh

Darn it! You are correct!

Ok, so how about: we made about as much in batteries last year as all the A380s in the world can hold fully loaded in jet fuel. (There aren’t many of them!) Not as impressive, but still.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#222

Post by airspresso »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #165
airspresso wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, retooling gas stations is the way to go. Already happening in Norway where stations now show the price of kWh in addition to gas and diesel prominently on signs by the road. Charging is just a different kind of pump.

Charging stations don't need all the environmental equipment that gas stations have to catch oil and gas run off. I guess we could convert old gas stations that don’t need extensive environmental cleanup, but building new ones just to charge EVs is huge overkill when you just need some space in a parking lot.

That's a good point. Charging stations benefit from being a service station too though, with amenities and a cafe etc, since people want something to do while they charge. So a gas station is a better candidate than a parking lot when decisions are made for where to place the new charging infrastructure. Lots of other factors too of course.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#223

Post by wesleyd »

parineum wrote: post #209
rdtsc wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not EV owner but that’s not how like my car trips. I can drive 4 hrs nonstop and then expect to “charge” my car in 5 minutes at the pump with a bathroom break, and be on the road. Sometimes we like a more leisurely drive, but it should be up me to decide when that happens not the car. I am not saying there is anything wrong with liking how EV behave, it’s just it’s not for everyone. And I think a lot of recent p…

I felt the same way as you until I took a few road trips in sn EV. I drove about 20 hours in two days. The thing that struck me is how refreshed I felt when I arrived. Normally I'd be dead on my feet and the travel day would be lost completely but I was ready for activity on arrival. I was very surprised.

What kind of EV was it?

I have heard that the combination of self-driving and mandatory 30-60” breaks every few hours is very relaxing. I look forward to trying it some day. Meanwhile…

I would be very wary of taking my bolt on a long journey. I have no confidence that what few fast chargers are out there would actually work, or be available, and I wouldn’t want to plan my journey around charging stops, with copious backup plans! It would be very stressful!!

Not to mention that my bolt has only 300mi range in summer, and less than 200mi in winter. And fast chargers are rare enough that I’d be scared to get anywhere near the limit.

By contrast, my Elantra hybrid has a ~600mi range. And I can “charge” it anywhere.

The past is still here. It just isn’t evenly distributed.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#224

Post by ViewTrick1002 »

thelastgallon wrote: post #193
wesleyd wrote: post #185

Gas pumps in the US are artificially capped at 10 gallons per minute, and a gallon of gasoline is about 33kWh, so petrol cars in the US “charge” at 330kWh/min ~= 20MW. But most cars only turn about a third of that into motion, so let’s say 7MW equivalent? While BYD’s 1.5MW is amazing, it seems a stretch to call it “almost as fast as gas pumps.” Diesel pumps for trucks typically pump much faster too. And diesel is nea…

> The energy density of oil is amazing Have you heard about nuclear? Over 3 million times more energy dense than coal or gasoline.

Why not anti-matter matter reactions???

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#225

Post by torginus »

The fundamental problem of high-wattage charges (say 500kW), isn't to deliver power from the charger to the car, but that there needs to be crazy amounts of grid capacity to support them.

A house has like 10kW peak sustained power consumption (an apt even less), which it rarely reaches, so a park of these fast chargers need the same infrastructure as a small town.

These loads are so huge

Cities like Beijing have strong industry and in general have the infrastructure to it, so it's relatively straightforward to install chargers like these. If you go out into the countryside, this infrastructure disappears, and won't see these fast chargers.

Most European cities barely have enough capacity to cover urban expansion, never mind to support this.

These articles suggest, its just a matter of putting down these stations, and that would solve the charger problem, but in truth, there's often a prerequisite of huge grid upgrades somebody has to build and pay for, which come with the unpleasant sight of these high voltage lines intruding into neighborhoods.

I wished articles lambasting the lack of fast chargers also mentioned this as well.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#226

Post by illiac786 »

ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #224
thelastgallon wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The energy density of oil is amazing Have you heard about nuclear? Over 3 million times more energy dense than coal or gasoline.

Why not anti-matter matter reactions???

Pfff. Infinity stones put these to shame.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#227

Post by pornel »

wesleyd wrote: post #223
parineum wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt the same way as you until I took a few road trips in sn EV. I drove about 20 hours in two days. The thing that struck me is how refreshed I felt when I arrived. Normally I'd be dead on my feet and the travel day would be lost completely but I was ready for activity on arrival. I was very surprised.

What kind of EV was it? I have heard that the combination of self-driving and mandatory 30-60” breaks every few hours is very relaxing. I look forward to trying it some day. Meanwhile… I would be very wary of taking my bolt on a long journey. I have no confidence that what few fast chargers are out there would actually work, or be available, and I wouldn’t want to plan my journey around charging stops, with copious b…

e-GMP platform (IONIQ 5, etc.) is really good for road trips.

At least in summer temperatures it reliably charges to 80% under 20 minutes. Its range estimate is quite good, and I can depend on it to know when I can skip a charging stop (when I first drove an EV I was freaking out about the 20% state of charge like it was a cellphone. Now I roll to the chargers with 2% left when it saves time).

It depends where you live, but infrastructure in the UK and EU has got good enough to the point I don't need backup plans. Chargers are as common as McDonald's (often quite literally). If a station is slow or busy, I can just go to the next one (and they are in clumps often enough that even with a low battery it's not a big deal).

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#228

Post by DroneBetter »

KolmogorovComp wrote: post #217
thelastgallon wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99.9% of use cases of EVs can charge at home/work/shop, don't need separate infrastructure, logistics and supply chains for delivery of electricity. There is a very small fraction of EV trips that need charging on the go. The vast majority of trips are under 3 (or 5 miles).

> 99.9% of use cases of EVs can charge at home/work/shop This is yet again a very US-centric view where you assume people are living in house with a garage.

"home" can be substituted for "place where car resides when owner is at home" without meaningfully changing the point

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#229

Post by pornel »

tim333 wrote: post #80
orbital-decay wrote: post #63

>Just taking an existing fast charger with 150- or 350-kW capacity and swapping in the latest and greatest 1,500-kW chargers wouldn’t get anyone faster speeds. The system would need all new “pipes”—grid capacity—to actually move that much current. The grid doesn't necessarily mean "pipes" or power lines. You don't build a pipeline to every gas station. Mobile charging robots work pretty well in China.

Also I guess they could put a large battery at the charging station so it can take say a steady 200kw from the grid and be able to kick out 1500kw for ten minutes occasionally. That could also charge from cheap off peak electricity.

This is what everyone is already doing, even for relatively small and slow dispensers.

It's simply cheaper to have on-site batteries. It makes installation work with a smaller connection to the grid, and makes it possible to install chargers in more places without upgrading the grid connection.

Energy arbitrage is profitable on its own, so EV charging stations are almost just an excuse to get some land and a grid connection for more batteries.

Re: How BYD got EV chargers to work almost as fast as gas pumps

#230

Post by pornel »

JonChesterfield wrote: post #145

If you can get a megawatt into the car batteries without setting them on fire, that's game over for petrol cars. And for the other electric vehicles that haven't worked it out yet. Only reason I'm on petrol is unwillingness to wait an hour to recharge the car. The rest of the infra is fine if that can be done. Array of batteries and/or capacitors at the supply point and draw continuously from the grid. Most entertain…

For me EVs already won when charging got down to 20 minutes.

EVs charge unattended. It takes less of my own time to leave EV plugged in parked next to a place I want to be at, than to go drive to a gas station and stand there holding a smelly nozzle.

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