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Your phone is an entire computer

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Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#221

Post by wolvoleo »

> Now that I know my iPhone has the capacity to run MacOS, I would very much like to do so. I’d love to consider the possibility of switching to a less intrusive phone and repurposing this iPhone into a web server. Perhaps that seems silly, but it’s really not. I’ve already paid for the device, it's clearly a full blown computer, and why should I not be able to modify it as I see fit?

I kinda do that with Samsung DeX. You plug it into a USB-C dock and it basically turns the phone into a computer. With Android apps running in little windows (not MS windows). It's amazingly useful, it's a bit like Microsoft's old convergence idea but it actually works.

I use it at work when I forgot to put my laptop in my bag (at home it's hidden in a dock behind my screen so it happens from time to time). I can work a whole day with meetings, doing some MS Office work etc. And if I need real Windows I can connect to a VDI. I could technically work like that every time I go to the office, the only reason I don't is some AD admin work that is not allowed in a VDI. It works technically but it's an internal rule thing.

I also use it on the go with an Xreal Air and a foldable keyboard. I have a whole computer with me for the weight and bulk of less than an iPad Apple could easily do similar, however their do really thrive by selling as many devices as possible so I doubt they would do it.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#222

Post by minusLik »

Retr0id wrote: post #115
purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

If you make a bootloader unlock require a full wipe/rekey of the device, and make unlock status visible at boot, most of the "someone might unlock my bootloader maliciously" concerns go away.

Fairphone actually does this. My FP3+ displays a red bar with an open padlock as long as the bootloader is unlocked, and when one changes the bootloader lock one way or the other, the phone wipes itself.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#223

Post by joemi »

AstroBen wrote: post #151
joemi wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they did that, every influencer would make youtube videos and tik toks telling people how they should enable that setting to make their phone better or more powerful "for free", and everyone would just do it, especially the people who really shouldn't because they don't know any better.

> everyone would just do it Wouldn't it be better to solve that with education? Also MacOS gives you a warning when you're opening something not vetted by them. The idea that it's some higher authorities responsibility to keep us safe quickly slides into losing freedoms we care about. Would you also like all websites to be ISP-approved? We could also have all social media filtered through LLM guards to keep us safe?…

MacOS does more than just give you a warning when you're opening a program not vetted by them -- it prevents you from opening it, so that's not really a good example of education, and is in fact an example of lockdown.

I'm not arguing that anything get any more locked down than it already is, so your points (while possibly valid in a bigger discussion) don't make a lot of sense here in this discussion about a hypothetical "unlock phone" setting.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#224

Post by geophile »

purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

All good points. But what would be really useful and easy is allowing the iPhone to be used as a full-fledged computer on a file system completely distinct from that used to run the phone. Then my laptop is just peripherals connected to my phone.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#225

Post by modeless »

If you want to control the software that runs on your phone, you can. You have to choose with your wallet, and buy a phone that gives you that freedom, such as the Pixel. Buying a locked down iPhone and then complaining about it is ineffective. Wallets speak louder than words to a corporation.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#226

Post by zapzupnz »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #205
WorldPeas wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as someone who did this for a week, it's nice until you need to install an app to check your bank statements or manage your insurance. Maybe that will get better as agents do, however

You don't have a laptop or desktop for those things? Whilst I may not represent the average person, I have no need to check bank statements or manage insurance immediately, so I can wait until I'm at a 'real' computer to do it more conveniently and easily and with a bigger screen and keyboard and mouse. GPs point about the 'relationship with the smart phone' seems to be pertinent. "need to install an app" to do these…

> You don't have a laptop or desktop for those things?

> Whilst I may not represent the average person, I have no need to check bank statements or manage insurance immediately

I think a lot of people check to make sure how much money they have before they make some purchases, especially big ones. Or, they check with this card declined (might need to move some money from one account to another or use a different card).

I teach high school and see students doing this all the time when buying food for lunch. I can't imagine it's any less prevalent amongst adults of a certain generation.

I certainly need to know how much money I have at any given time when I'm shopping. Seems fairly privileged (not in a bad way) to not need to think about that.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#227

Post by why_at »

zozbot234 wrote: post #190
why_at wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, being cryptographically locked-down is an optional feature. If you don't like it, buy a computer without that feature. But that's the thing, where can I buy a phone without a locked-down operating system? GrapheneOS on a Google Pixel is basically the only option right now, and this still has problems thanks to hardware attestation in a lot of apps that the ecosystem forces us to use. This is large…

> hardware attestation in a lot of apps that the ecosystem forces us to use Only a tiny amount of apps force you into hardware attestation, and these are mostly around banking, mobile payments and the like. So just use a separate, locked down device for those (where the anti-fraud protection of a locked-down system can be a benefit) and your more open day-to-day device for mostly everything else. A hidden advantage i…

>Only a tiny amount of apps force you into hardware attestation

Luckily this is still true, but I'm not confident that it will stay this way. For a few examples, I've been unable to use my phone as a metro card in my city because even though it goes through the metro's app, the app redirects back to google pay. Google's own Waymo app won't work without stock OS even though all it does is call robotaxis.

>these are mostly around banking, mobile payments and the like. So just use a separate, locked down device for those

I don't think this is a very reasonable suggestion, carrying around a second phone that I use at most a couple of times a day is inconvenient and expensive. Half of the point of these is convenience and this would defeat the purpose.

The broader point is that our standards for phones are so different from everything else. I also carry around a credit card which requires no authorization to use, not to mention cash. I can have just as much personal data on my laptop if not more, so why does it have to be this way just for phones?

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#228

Post by fleebee »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #205
WorldPeas wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as someone who did this for a week, it's nice until you need to install an app to check your bank statements or manage your insurance. Maybe that will get better as agents do, however

You don't have a laptop or desktop for those things? Whilst I may not represent the average person, I have no need to check bank statements or manage insurance immediately, so I can wait until I'm at a 'real' computer to do it more conveniently and easily and with a bigger screen and keyboard and mouse. GPs point about the 'relationship with the smart phone' seems to be pertinent. "need to install an app" to do these…

My bank only has two options for authentication: Either you use their mobile app or buy an authentication device from them that's the size of a small phone. Either way I need a handheld device.

I can't say I'm happy with the direction of things. They used to offer slips of paper with single-use codes that worked fine, but those are now deprecated in favor of the smartphone app.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#229

Post by tibbon »

This feels a bit like when my friend Colin put out a challenge for people to get Windows XP running on the then-new Intel Macs.

I love this idea. I'd love a tiny full computer that I could dock onto other hardware and just carry around.

https://www.crn.com/news/channel-programs/183700272/intel-ma...

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#230

Post by mingus88 »

purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

Also phones are network devices on a carrier network. A long time ago, people didn’t even own their own phones. Their landlines were property of the phone company.

Apple achieved what was nearly impossible by getting iPhone capabilities on a carrier’s network. (They did another impossible feat with the iTunes Store and selling tracks for 0.99)

iPhone capabilities caught up to most people’s computing needs but at the core these are still devices that need to be approved to run on a carrier’s network with basic service contracts. So they are locked down.

Phone networks have always been crusty legacy things when you look at it from a modern computing lens

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