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/e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

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Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#221

Post by well_ackshually »

mapcars wrote: post #116
well_ackshually wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even worse, it slowing us down from leaving Android entirely. There are zero OSes that are 1/ open source 2/ appropriate for phones 3/ with good hardware support. There's absolutely nothing. Running Ubuntu Touch isn't a viable option. Neither is postmarket, librem, tizen, they're all terrible. Security wise, for something as critically important in our lives as a smartphone, I am also not trusting any new pet projec…

> There are zero OSes that are 1/ open source 2/ appropriate for phones 3/ with good hardware support. There's absolutely nothing Sailfish?

Fundamentally, not enough. Linux's default security mechanisms are simply too weak for something as potentially hostile as a mobile device. Firejail is a good start, but proper user isolation as Android does is the right solution (each app is a different user, and accessing their data/user data is only done through Providers, or IPC), and anything else is naively trusting and not enough, no matter how many layers of sandboxing and suid-ing you do. Doubly so when all of its apps are written in C++. Can't wait to deal with use-after-free on my mobile device.

In addition, its compatibility with android apps is also chains: why would I bother developing for sailfish (especially since it involves Qt / Qt Creator) when I can just develop an Android app, and say it'll run well enough (unless it needs play integrity, which is the same problem, or somehow falls behind in android/androidx compatibility)

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#222

Post by amiga386 »

jllyhill wrote: post #185
fransje26 wrote: post #50

The irony of advertising a privacy-enabled de-googled system, and then telling me that my Firefox browser is not support, and that I should use Edge, Opera or Chrome instead.... Browsing: https://e.foundation/installer/ Reply: https://imgur.com/a/al1Q9DM

And, to counter the arguments that "the site tells you that you need WebUSB support": you get to the https://e.foundation/installer/ when you click "Check device compatibility" on the main page. Personally, I'd expect either a check that works in any browser or a simple compatible device list. Why would I need a special browser just to check if I can use this OS? This is especially strange considering they have the l…

What I currently see:

main page -> download and try! -> browse supported devices

lands on https://doc.e.foundation/devices which is a list of models, while

main page -> download and try! -> check device compatibility

lands on https://e.foundation/installer/ the chromium-only webusb page. It could be a better page; instead of showing a scary "navigator not suppored" modal demanding you install a particular browser, it could say the automated compatibility tester requires one of these browsers and your phone plugged in with USB, otherwise here's the device finder page

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#223

Post by vovavili »

goldenarm wrote: post #9

Tweaking user-hostile OSes into user-friendly ones is impressive, but not sustainable. Even worse, it slowing us down from leaving Android entirely. Look at the AdBlocker crackdown of Google Chrome. Every single chrome-fork has shut down MV2 extensions, even Brave is about to do it, because it is impossible to maintain features that complex on a browser that Google spends >$1B/year to develop. Same story for /e/ and…

Extensions prior to MV3 were notoriously insecure and granted extension developers a very wide attack surface. Assuming that Google only has a sinister reason to switch to a better standard in an ecosystem riddled with ill-intentioned actors is a bit too cynical.

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#224

Post by vanviegen »

goldenarm wrote: post #28
preisschild wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should focus our efforts on truly open platforms. But currently AOSP is very much open. That's also what the GrapheneOS devs say and why they want to continue using Android. Until it becomes clear that they will completely stop releasing the source code under a free software license i dont see why one should not use Android.

AOSP dev went private, and Google is slower and slower at releasing the source, now twice a year. Worse, many stock apps like the Dialer and Gallery went closed-source years ago. But the source isn't the point, it's the governance. Just like Chrome, having the source is not enough to guarantee an open platform. Sure you can disable telemetry flags. But you cannot afford to maintain an important feature Google wants t…

> But you cannot afford to maintain an important feature Google wants to remove, like MV2.

That depends on who "you" is. Maintaining extensive patch sets is still way cheaper than building and maintaining an entire browser.

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#225

Post by well_ackshually »

Vinnl wrote: post #111
well_ackshually wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even worse, it slowing us down from leaving Android entirely. There are zero OSes that are 1/ open source 2/ appropriate for phones 3/ with good hardware support. There's absolutely nothing. Running Ubuntu Touch isn't a viable option. Neither is postmarket, librem, tizen, they're all terrible. Security wise, for something as critically important in our lives as a smartphone, I am also not trusting any new pet projec…

> you're stuck on Android 17, which is centuries of work ahead of literally anything else in the open source community. It's far ahead, but at the same time, I think we shouldn't over-emphasise how much. Functionality at the beginning of a project's lifetime is way more important than incremental improvements (or just changes) made later, and thus while much more effort has been invested into Android, new projects pr…

Material 3 is mostly not part of the AOSP tree (aside from some very, very deep code like shadows) and is just UI libraries. I actually wonder if M3 has View implementations, or if everything has been migrated to Compose.

You're also underestimating the amount of fundamental work that goes in Android. The vast majority is hardware integration. It's not all fancy little bells and whistles. It would have the added benefit of not having to relearn the security mistakes like LIST_ALL_PACKAGES or READ_SMS permissions being open to all, at least.

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#226

Post by well_ackshually »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #88
well_ackshually wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the level of security you ask for Play Integrity, it can be: * is this device rooted, is it an unsigned build ? * Device is signed, but is it part of the blessed signing keys ? is play services untampered with ? * Additional checks over the lifetime of the device. You could fully trust the results of Play Integrity on device, but you can also send the returned token to your server, and your server then c…

So basically an alternative OS can offer a service like Play Integrity and the only problem is that those banks hard-code a dependence on Google's Play Integrity and Google has a monopoly for that service? This is something that could be addressed at least in the EU by mandating banks to allow alternative services or not use this service at all.

Yep. You can even run your own play integrity-like backend.

>This is something that could be addressed at least in the EU by mandating banks to allow alternative services or not use this service at all.

The EU mandates banks to be interoperable, and to guarantee the security of users. You can solve that issue by going through an alternative app that doesn't use play integrity and is PSD2 compliant so other banks let you call their APIs. It usually requires you to be a bank, and as a bank, you're really risk averse. So you use play integrity.

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#227

Post by RGamma »

fsflover wrote: post #217
RGamma wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well do communication apps work on it (Whatsapp, Signal, Discord)? Backups? Media (not as important)? Increasingly thinking of relegating my iPhone to 2FA and maybe banking only.

> Backups? Everything that works on desktop GNU/Linux should work on the phone, too. I use Pika Backup app. > communication AFAIK none of the apps you listed officially support Linux ARM, so you have to go through some configuration unfortunately. I do not use any of them, I use Matrix. > Signal https://forums.puri.sm/t/signal-app-now-usable-in-portrait-m... https://framapiaf.org/@lolgzs/113010288224110061 > Whatsapp…

Guess I'll have a look myself soon when I'm ready for some fiddliness. Sounds promising enough.

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#228

Post by Forgeties79 »

enriquto wrote: post #144
safety1st wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that there are people out there working on stuff like /e/OS, but the number one question I have when I learn about a mobile OS that isn't iOS or "Googled" Android is: will the banking and payment apps I need to operate in the modern world run on this OS? A lot of people don't think this way because they haven't had any problems. But then one day it happens to you and you realize, ok, this is the one thin…

> the app my electricity utility provides for viewing and paying my account DISABLES ITSELF FOREVER if you so much as enable USB debugging on your phone (even after you've disabled it again). These are self-inflicted problems by these apps. Nothing to do with the OS. These apps simply don't work. Complain to the companies that push these broken apps to you. Would you buy a microwave oven that kills itself if you play…

You’re implying we have more choice than we do and asking “the average joe” to change banks to accommodate their smartphone is not a serious suggestion.

My utility company, for instance, literally won’t let you navigate their site with a VPN running. These kinds of practices are commonplace and becoming standard.

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#229

Post by Forgeties79 »

abighamb wrote: post #212
abustamam wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems may be inflicted by these apps but the reality is that in many cases you're stuck with them. Electric company freezes your account if you enable USB debugging? Well, you can't choose a new electric company. We can complain to these vendors all we want but they just ignore us. So these problems become problems of the OS, not because the OS has a problem, but because it affects the reality of using the OS.

Is it such a burden to write them a letter stating, "Because you have decided to disable my electronic access, I am notifying you that I withdraw my consent to e-delivery. Please provide me statements and directions to mail you a check for payment." Maybe spend 20-30 min to find the specific laws that give you the right to do that and remind them of their timelines to comply. Send a letter like that certified. It get…

Not everyone has the time and resources to battle their utilities and bank(s). I know it’s important and sustained effort is necessary even if it’s hard, but we are talking about massive populations here and most people simply can’t or won’t fight that battle on their own. Organizing a large pushback is also a huge effort. And at the end of the day, there is an easy solution for folks: buy a “proper” smart phone that “just works” because it solves the problem now.

We’ve gotten to the point where unfortunately it is a luxury to fight for your privacy and consumer rights.

Re: /e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

#230

Post by fsflover »

mghackerlady wrote: post #210
fsflover wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(GNU/)Linux on mobile is the true sustanable, independent OS. It relies on the existing, strong Linux development, natively runs existing Linux apps and guarantees you lifetime updates. What else do you need? Sent from my Librem 5.

>fsflover Username checks out (I kid, I'm also a fan of their work). Also, if you're using PureOS, what's that like? Have they updated to a debian 13 base yet? Pretty much the only thing stopping me from at least trying it out is the super old version of GNOME

> Also, if you're using PureOS, what's that like?

I gave a couple of links to my reviews in another comment here.

> Have they updated to a debian 13 base yet?

No, but they're advancing, https://forums.puri.sm/t/when-and-how-to-jump-to-crimson/300...

> fan of their work

Thanks!

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