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North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

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Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standardized testing is just the application of the scientific method to education. That's not true in any way. The purpose of the education system is to create a well-informed citizenry prepared for a productive life and for the duty of running a country. The goal of standardized testing is to get some very rough metrics about superficial, easy-to-observe aspects of some basic parts of the apparatus. The two are ver…

The purpose of the education system is to create a well-informed citizenry prepared for a productive life and for the duty of running a country. Could you be specific? In particular, how do I measure whether a citizen is prepared for a productive life or not? Heck, we could start by testing the hypothesis that getting everybody to focus lots of classroom time on standardized tests improves actual education. How would…

Why is it suddenly my job to make up tests? If you'd like some, give it a go.

My point is that NCLB is scientific in the same way Taylorism was: it's a cargo cult activity that takes on the trappings of science and looks for something easy to measure. And then uses those measures in ways that aren't scientifically validated at all.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#222

It's fine to grumble about testing, but the debate is not about the tests. Teachers performance in the US has been terrible for many years. Partly this is because of bad management, partly because of low pay, and partly because of teacher unions preventing any action against the worst teachers and insistance on tenure tracks. The reason testing is good isn't because it is somehow super accurate. It is good because it…

I think part of the reason that a lot of student evaluation is now in the form of tests (multiple choice I assume) is because they are relatively easy and quick to mark. Evaluating a piece of design or art work, or asking to write creative prose, or showing all the working out for a lengthy mathematical problem requires significantly more time and energy than feeding a test through a computer.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

Arguing against standardized testing is arguing against A/B testing. If you can't measure it there is no way to tell whether it's getting better.

I'm sorry, but this is a completely wrong-headed statement. Standardized testing for school children and A/B testing for web site visitors are completely different beyond the fact that both involve the word "test".

When you run A/B tests on a web site you don't tell the visitors which version they are being shown, or even that there are multiple versions at all. That would completely destroy the value of the testing. In psychology research, where ethics generally dictates that the subjects be informed, they are still not told what specifically is being tested, lest they modify their behavior.

On the other hand, everyone involved in school standardized tests knows about the tests, knows about various biases that exist within the tests, and knows what is at stake based on the results of the tests.

The reason that the current form of standardized testing is destructive is pure economics. If I tell you that I will count how many lines of code you have committed to the repository at the end of each week and that your pay will be based on this figure, what are you and your coworkers going to do? You're going to start writing hundreds of lines of comments, putting each variable declaration on its own line, needlessly re-factoring satisfactory code, etc. This is, as I understand it, a well-documented side-effect of measuring programmer productivity using LoC.

Once I implement this evaluation scheme, two things happen. First, you are being evaluated based on an objective metric. Second, you have direct control over the value that metric takes on. Economics, which is, to a great extent, the study of incentives, tells us that you (and your coworkers, at least in general) will game the daylights out of the metric.

So why is it any different when teachers, once told that their salaries and very jobs depend on the results of an annual test, teach their students exactly what is on the test, by hook or by crook, even at the expense of "real" learning?

The problem is that teachers aren't oblivious (neither are programmers). When they see that they are being evaluated based on the outcome of X, they seek to maximize X. So the trick is, if you insist on quantitative metrics (which is not totally unreasonable, at least as the default) then the metrics must be linked to the behaviors that are desirable, not some vague indicator that approximately tracks those behaviors.

Edit: missing word

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#224
post #72

It's fine to grumble about testing, but the debate is not about the tests. Teachers performance in the US has been terrible for many years. Partly this is because of bad management, partly because of low pay, and partly because of teacher unions preventing any action against the worst teachers and insistance on tenure tracks. The reason testing is good isn't because it is somehow super accurate. It is good because it…

"partly because of low pay" Teachers are actually some of the highest paid people in society. When you don't include benefits teachers make about $40/hr while engineers make $42/hr. If you do include benefits, a teachers compensation far exceeds that of an engineer due to their pensions. Source, BLS via Forbes.

At 19 I was making more than my high school business teacher on an entry level salary. Seems to me that is a pretty sad state of affairs.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#225
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I think it might work for finding the bottom 10%. Those are the ones you want to fire. If a teacher is in the bottom 30% (and in danger of getting in to the bottom 10%), you probably want them behaving like robots (teaching the test, following set procedures). If they are competent (most teachers are) you want them to manage themselves, as heavy incentives will just screw up their behavior.

Your search for the bottom ten percent will put in place mechanisms that will affect the behavior of the remaining 90. You underestimate the ability of people to use such systems to end up enforcing a stifling uniform and grey mediocrity. Turn it on its head - if you switched the voting on HN to find the worst commentors, instead of bringing the best up top - what would happen.

"If you switched the voting on HN to find the worst commentors, instead of bringing the best up top - what would happen?"

It would become Reddit?

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

Arguing against standardized testing is arguing against A/B testing. If you can't measure it there is no way to tell whether it's getting better.

Not sure if you have ever read about the system in Finland, but its fascinating. And very low on testing from my understanding. Searching for Finland on this education site is interesting http://www.edweek.org//search.html?prx=p&occ=p&qs1=F...

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anything like this already exist? Google "homeschool co-ops"

I was part of one when I was a kid. Science was taught by a teacher who used to teach in public schools and we were very fortunate to have him because my mother didn't want potentially dangerous chemicals or dissection animals in the house. I was home-schooled from 1st to 8th grade, then went to public high school and college.

How did you find the transition? That's an interesting pathway to have followed.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#228
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. For people who are so focused on "data-driven education" they always seem to ignore this. The fact of the matter is that collectively they perform no better than public schools, while undermining those very schools they are trying to 'fix.' Perhaps part of the issue is that people are focusing on a 'silver bullet' for education. Standardized tests, charter schools, and even th…

Why can't there be more than one school serving a particular area? Does the mere existence of charter/private/parochial in a community undermine that community's public school? Why would that be so? Education is far from the only service industry for which there is no silver bullet. Other such industries function by fostering expertise at management levels in addition to the "work" level, but always leaving the final…

One way a charter school can undermine the normal public school is by draining away motivated students, since they do get to choose who is admitted, thereby skewing stats.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#229
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. For people who are so focused on "data-driven education" they always seem to ignore this. The fact of the matter is that collectively they perform no better than public schools, while undermining those very schools they are trying to 'fix.' Perhaps part of the issue is that people are focusing on a 'silver bullet' for education. Standardized tests, charter schools, and even th…

Why can't there be more than one school serving a particular area? Does the mere existence of charter/private/parochial in a community undermine that community's public school? Why would that be so? Education is far from the only service industry for which there is no silver bullet. Other such industries function by fostering expertise at management levels in addition to the "work" level, but always leaving the final…

> Why can't there be more than one school serving a particular area? Does the mere existence of charter/private/parochial in a community undermine that community's public school? Why would that be so?

Tragedy of the anti-commons, basically.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#230

It's fine to grumble about testing, but the debate is not about the tests. Teachers performance in the US has been terrible for many years. Partly this is because of bad management, partly because of low pay, and partly because of teacher unions preventing any action against the worst teachers and insistance on tenure tracks. The reason testing is good isn't because it is somehow super accurate. It is good because it…

Yeah, for me, standardized testing has been a canary in the coal mine more than it has been a legitimate point of contention. The fact that it's such a big deal is a signal that the need for a paradigm shift is strong.
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