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The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#221

Post by sandworm101 »

supertrope wrote: post #132
sandworm101 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were only eating there would be no problem. But they want fancy vacations. They want houses. They need drugs. They need MRI machines. And they need these things for decades for minimal cost irrespective of ability to pay. And, when they do die, they expect to pass estates tax-free to thier children. Supporting the retired population is one thing, but the day may soon come when we revisit what it means to be r…

If you want to punch up try aiming higher than the upper-middle class. Other countries have MRIs and drugs as part of universal healthcare.

Ya but those countries also do not enjoy private health insurance and for-profit care providers. The ability to purchase shares in both the hospital that is treating you and the company that authorizes your treatment is a uniquely american priviledge.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#222

Post by webdoodle »

jdlyga wrote: post #68

Once you have a kid, it's obvious why even besides the costs involved. There's not much sense of community, particularly in the white middle class. People are very individualistic and distrusting of others. There's a good reason for some of this, but to have a community you need to be a community member. And that means letting people in, trusting others and being trustworthy, and being out for the group instead of ju…

There is no 'good' reason. It's anti-social media that is driving people apart, and it's not good at all.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#223

Post by epistasis »

andrewla wrote: post #145
tantalor wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recent episode of The Daily gives a prime example of this, I was seeing people getting hired and getting paid a lot less than me. And when I inquired about it, my boss would say, well, they’re less expensive. I don’t have to pay workman’s comp on them. I don’t have to pay general liability insurance on them. If they get hurt, they’ll go to the emergency room. No sweat off my back. And I was getting paid less and…

I don't think he blames the immigrants specifically, so much as illegal immigration as an institution. The only "punishment" that most people want for illegal immigrants who have committed no crimes other than the immigration violation itself is for them to be deported, which really does not seem like a punishment at all -- it's just undoing the criminal act. Like if you stole some money from a bank and then had to g…

There are such deep contradictions in these thoughts. You think that the illegal immigrant is going to starve without the criminal employer? When just a second ago you were saying they should be deported, and that "most" people think that's OK?

We all lose when these immigrants are deported, and every mass deportation means simultaneously a mass deprivation of rights and a mess of big mistakes that ruin people's families and lives.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#224

Post by throw1111221 »

plaguna wrote: post #3

Maybe they should have a look to what other countries are doing. [0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jan/27/spain-decree-r...

Meanwhile, in Denmark:

Why have Danes turned against immigration?

...

In October the finance ministry, in its annual report on the issue, estimated that in 2018 immigrants from non-Western countries and their descendants drained from public finances a net 31bn kroner ($4.9bn), some 1.4% of GDP. Immigrants from Western countries, by contrast, contributed a net 7bn kroner (see chart). Data on immigration’s fiscal effects were what “changed the Social Democrats’ point of view”, says Torben Tranaes of the Danish Centre for Social Science Research.

Muslims are at the core of the issue. This year was the first time the ministry reported separately on the contributions by people from 24 Muslim countries. They account for 50% of the non-Westerners, but 77% of the drain. Alongside that worry are fears that Muslims bring notions about democracy and the role of women that Danes find threatening. Muslims are welcome, says Mr Tesfaye, but, “We can’t meet in the middle. It’s not half sharia and half the Danish constitution.”

...

https://archive.is/kXMi7

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#225

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

acheron wrote: post #201
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is housing really that expensive? When you price out a loan on a starter house it really ain't that bad. I'm a recent first time homebuyer and I don't understand why people think they aren't affordable. There were plenty of cheaper homes that I looked at and even with rates at their highest would be cheaper than my rent. Do people expect a palace? Are there more unmarried people today who can't afford it alone?

In general the “housing is too expensive” people mean “I looked at every available house in both San Francisco and New York City, and didn’t find anything cheap!”

That's what it feels like to me. Hey I checked all the houses in a jet set fart sniffing town and there's nothing!

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#226

Post by greenavocado »

neogodless wrote: post #169
gadders wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Given that I.C.E. has been allowed to stop people just for not looking white enough, and even white citizens have been shot for being "near" I.C.E. operations, I would suggest that it is not safe to assume someone is not a citizen, just because I.C.E. makes them feel unsafe in their neighborhood.

[flagged]

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#227

Post by unyttigfjelltol »

brightball wrote: post #162
whatever1 wrote: post #100

Most of the developed countries are facing this. I think our financial/defense systems are not prepared for population decline, so I foresee a lot of turbulence. The new left will call for more immigration and more globalism to avoid wars, but will have to deal with integration of swaths of immigrants. The new right will call for closing of the borders and double down on AI doing the work of producing and defending,…

I've watched most of my life as narratives have been pushed in popular culture, TV, music, magazines, online articles, etc that go out of their way to convince people not to have children. Just some examples of trends I've observed personally. - Scare media about the cost of having children - Scare media about the environmental impact of having children, even calling it irresponsible for the planet - Scare media abou…

Maybe all these things are true at the same time. More of a “is it better to have loved and lost than never loved at all” kind of dialogue.

In the midst of grief over any of the topics above, compounded by an indifferentand maladapted system, I think it’s completely understandable that folks could have a lot to say about these challenges.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#228

Post by bpt3 »

tehjoker wrote: post #166
queuebert wrote: post #16

Why do we obsess over growing everything all the time?

American capitalists and economic planners fret about "Japan Syndrome". To have more productivity and more consumption i.e. GDP growth, you need more people as a core driver. We don't actually need this, we could do fine with a stable population, but capitalism needs to grow or perish. Declining populations are trickier for most economic concepts though. Less labor, less consumption. That said, a slight decline can l…

If you or anyone you care about is or will be elderly and is not financially independent, you should care.

This has nothing to do with capitalism; it's a resource allocation problem. We spend inordinate amounts of money on end of life care, and any changes are currently unacceptable to voters.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#229

Post by rendang »

AdamN wrote: post #199
koolba wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has endless backlog of people waiting in line to legally enter the country. It doesn’t need to keep any illegal aliens to meet its immigration goals.

Wouldn't it be simplest to just legalize the people who are here and at the same time also open up immigrant visas too?

It creates a huge moral hazard to reward those who illegally entered/overstayed visas

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#230

Post by mothballed »

bombcar wrote: post #209
pjc50 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The traditional approach to this is: a) make younger female family members do all the work b) make them invisible, politically and socially, so everything looks fine

Even if you don't go to that extreme, you look back only a few generations and even today at immigrants, and you see that the old people never stop working until they're literally bed-ridden. They might not have GDP-increasing jobs that show up on balance sheets, but grandma watches the kids (effectively working as daycare, off-books), grandpa fixes things, and so on. By demanding everything be reduced to the nuclear…

> They might not have GDP-increasing jobs that show up on balance sheets, but grandma watches the kids (effectively working as daycare, off-books), grandpa fixes things, and so on.

Yes I believe this brings up one of the more poisonous elements of social security, even if it is worth it. It completely decouples the mutual assistance where the parent and grandparent form a symbiotic relationship in the interest of raising the child. Instead of a quid-pro-quo, the government violently enforces a one-way transaction and the older generation can simply tell the younger generation to kick rocks.

Obviously I don't think the elderly have any responsibility to do daycare or fix things, but the fact they can simply not do so while demanding the counterparty still keep up their end of the bargain -- has consequences. If the older generation can tell the younger generation to kick rocks, then the younger generation ought to be able to tell the older generation they can kick rocks back to whatever private savings/investment they have.

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