Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For xeyes that works. It is absolutely an inferior and chatty protocol for any other application though, like try to watch a youtube video in chrome through it. I used run and use diskless SparcStation 5s with remote X on 10BASE2 network with the binaries running on Sun E3500s: it worked well enough for non-video web sites running Netscape 3.x. Also Matlab, Octave, Emacs, Vi(m), etc . I've used it to run backup app…
Well, we are using much higher resolutions with much higher frame rates and with more media-rich content. You surely agree that not having a good compression here is less than ideal. And it begs the question whether this is indeed the task of the display manager, or it's packing an unrelated functionality that could be better solved by another software. And we haven't even gotten to sound - should a display manager n…
Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
221–230 of 339 posts
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a downgrade that we have no choice but to accept in order to continue using our machines. Anyone familiar with Microsoft or Apple already knows that's the future.
> It's a downgrade that we have no choice but to accept in order to continue using our machines. Odd. Xorg still works fine [0], and we'll see how XLibre pans out. [0] I'm using it right now , and it's still getting updates.
They intentionally don't want you to keep using X11, and they'll keep turning up the heat on the pot until we're all boiling.
Gnome just removed the middle-click paste option. Is that because they fixed the clipboard situation on Linux, and there's a universal, unambiguous way of cut and paste that works across every application? No. It's because middle-click to paste is an "X-ism." This is just demagoguery and unserious.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why does Wayland "feel like the future?" It feels like a regression to me and a lot of other people who have run into serious usability problems. At best, it seems like a huge diversion of time and resources, given that we already had a working GUI. (Maybe that was the intention.) The arguments for it have boiled down to "yuck code older than me" from supposed professionals employed by commercial Linux vendors to sup…
Wayland was the first display system on Linux I've used that just worked perfectly right out of the box on a bog standard Intel iGPU across several machines. I think that is a big draw for a lot of people like myself who just want to get things done. For me X11 represents the past through experience I had when I had to tinker with the X11 config file to get basic stuff like video playback to work smoothly without tea…
It's nowhere near the modline hell of XFree86.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody has a user-space stick big enough to force things in the Linux world. When Apple dropped the old audio APIs of classic macOS and introduced CoreAudio, they pissed off a lot of developers, but those developers had no choice. In the GUI realm, they only deprecated HIKit for a decade or two before removing it (if they've even done that), but they made it very clear that CoreFoo was the API you should be using and…
systemd comes close, and can be viewed as an attempt to create such a stick...
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is refreshing to see somebody else notice that the complaints about systemd and Wayland are philosophically incompatible. Systemd is creating the same kind of monolith monoculture that Xorg represented. Wayland is far more modular. Regardless of your engineering preferences, rejecting change is the main reason to object to both.
I do not have a strong opinion about Xorg vs Wayland. My only real concern is that it might make it harder for the BSDs but that seems to be being dealt with. I do like being able to use X over the nextwork but that is a problem that can be solved. I do dislike System D for two reasons. One is exactly because it s a monolith and, in effect, an extension of the OS. The other is the attitude of the developers which bec…
And in fact has been: https://github.com/wayland-transpositor/wprs
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It is absolutely an inferior and chatty protocol for any other application though, like try to watch a youtube video in chrome through it. This is extremely misleading. Web browsers (and games) are the worst case for X11's network transparency. The overwhelming majority of applications belong in the same category as xeyes. > the original X network transparency's modern analogue might very well be the web It's Arcan,…
> The overwhelming majority of applications belong in the same category as xeyes. Well, I'm not sure you are using that many xmotif apps. Most of the GUI programs are gtk/qt (and let's be honest, electron) - and they are mostly bitmaps to X's eyes (pun not intended). They don't use draw commands with such a small granularity that network transparency would benefit. And Arcan is so many things at once I'm not convince…
That's a bit of a double edged sword, it's the exact reason why I don't think Wayland is a good alternative to X. Wayland's minimalist attitude towards responsibility is good for one thing, and that's implementing new compositors from scratch. The bare bones compositor will be a long way from usable, but it will be technically complete. The question is, does it matter to me that there are 30 different compositors? Each in various states with their own eclectic featureset with no guarantees given, a la USB-C? Not really. In effect, it did present me with the conundrum of choosing between a half-baked compositor (dwl) or a desktop experience I have literally zero interest in (Gnome/KDE) which left me with a sour taste in the mouth.
Moving beyond that, a real problem with Wayland's architectural minimalism is that a display server does more than simply abstract a single API. It provides a lot of rather complex features, from accessibility to input handling. Not every compositor is capable of handling that kind of complexity, especially if it's to work well. What we will find going forward are two possible futures:
1. The future resembles the present status quo of fragmentation, made worse by time. The compositor archipelago is here to stay, and deploying software in this environment has become excessively annoying. There are 10 different competing libraries for any given category of basic infrastructure, and each library in each category has their own ideas and idiosyncrasies that have to be worked around. Most of them are buggy and incomplete.
2. Smaller compositors effectively die off, and we are left with a single monolithic compositor, back to the modular Window Manager/Desktop Environment. This monster implements the defacto Extended Wayland protocol, where all of the different parts don't quite match each other very well because that's the cost gained from not having vertical integration of complicated components. There's no cohesive rhyme or reason to the design of anything. Thus, the exercise in minimalism has wrought an uglier and more complicated beast than Xorg itself.
I think it's clear Wayland is going to continue to sweep the Linux desktop given its massive corporate backing. But I'm not really compelled to run a bare Wayland compositor under any circumstances, because my Arcan server already works perfectly fine as a Wayland compositor. It works as any number of Wayland compositors running whatever extensions they implement. In effect, no matter which future we end up in, by using Arcan I'm in a much better position than someone running a normal compositor. This fact alone makes me favor Arcan, even before we get into its unique merits.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why does Wayland "feel like the future?" It feels like a regression to me and a lot of other people who have run into serious usability problems. At best, it seems like a huge diversion of time and resources, given that we already had a working GUI. (Maybe that was the intention.) The arguments for it have boiled down to "yuck code older than me" from supposed professionals employed by commercial Linux vendors to sup…
Wayland was the first display system on Linux I've used that just worked perfectly right out of the box on a bog standard Intel iGPU across several machines. I think that is a big draw for a lot of people like myself who just want to get things done. For me X11 represents the past through experience I had when I had to tinker with the X11 config file to get basic stuff like video playback to work smoothly without tea…
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is refreshing to see somebody else notice that the complaints about systemd and Wayland are philosophically incompatible. Systemd is creating the same kind of monolith monoculture that Xorg represented. Wayland is far more modular. Regardless of your engineering preferences, rejecting change is the main reason to object to both.
How is Wayland more modular? It conflates the window manager, the compositor, and the display server, all into a single component that must be replaced as a single unit. This kind of new conflation is exactly what people dislike about systemd.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just wait for systemd-wayland.
Systemd does not have to force Wayland as it is already going the other way. Both GNOME and KDE are requiring systemd now.
GNOME, on the other hand, practically wants everything running on the exact same software stack, so it requiring a package means nothing.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#230I hope that XFCE remains a solid lightweight desktop option. I've become a huge fan of KDE over the past couple of years, but it certainly isn't what you would consider lightweight or minimal. Personally, I'm a big proponent of Wayland and not big Rust detractor, so I don't see any problem with this. I do, however, wonder how many long-time XFCE fans and the folks who donated the money funding this will feel about it…
Wayland has lots of potential, but it's far from ready to replace X11, especially in multitasking environments. XFCE is taking their time, because their community is more very concerned stability.
I predict that XFCE will default to X11 until Wayland has reached broad feature parity, then default to Wayland but keep X11 support until the last vestages of incompatibility are delt with.
There's no reason that this wouldn't be accepted by their community, and it should be lighter weight, in the end.