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Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

blog.kagi.com

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Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#221

Post by shmeeed »

walt_grata wrote: post #201
shmeeed wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it's conductive to the underlying big stakes discussion if we start condemning Kagi over this omission instead of assuming good faith. It's just distracting from the real issue at hand that is Google's monopoly and the details of the rulings and their enforcement. Call me naive, but I imagine Kagi would be VERY hesitant to force ads on their users, given that such a step would risk alienating a major…

I don't know dude. Every time I've assumed good faith on my paying for something means ad free, I've been screwed by some asshole with an MBA getting into a leadership position high enough to push ads through. I'd rather it be explicit

I get the point, we've all been burnt. But if you're not trusting anybody anyway, why would explicity in a non-binding blog post / press release soothe you?

We're in the middle of an AI bubble propping up the whole friggin US economy all by itself, driven mostly by a company that claimed to be a non-profit until a few years ago.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#223

Post by 1970-01-01 »

>The problem: A search monopoly

...

>We tried to do it the right way

This sign-up to retrieve better information idea will never take-off the way they think it will. A white label search will get you nowhere. They are silently failing because they're just too stubborn to do it the hard way. Kagi needs to pivot and succeed on useful and interesting edge cases first. Build us out a subject-relevant search, such as displaying vetted content from forums when searching a product/service, and then tying it into Facebook Marketplace for local items or services and Amazon for new. That is called building a product for yourself that others will use. Now you have your very own cashflow for clicks; use that cashflow to buy more corporate access, thereby proving you can succeed without any other search business propping you up and into relevancy. You don't need to start with the giants either. Start with something that works on local hunting, fishing, shooting, and knitting forums. When grandmothers need high quality green yarn today, make their muscle memory point to Kagi local, not Google.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#224

Post by mrweasel »

Ronsenshi wrote: post #181
zhfanlqeo wrote: post #179

I used kagi for a while but got lazy with updating the subscription when moving and needing to change credit cards so I went back to DDG/Google and having to go back to having to skip the first result or first few results shows you just how obnoxious this practice is. When I have a few moments I'll resubscribe to kagi...

I've been trying to use DDG for the past 2-3 years, but way too often I have to add !g at the end to go to google where I can get better results. So I've been considering giving Kagi a try. Can you tell if in your experience Kagi has better results than DDG?

I've used DDG since, 2012, and switched to Ecosia about three years ago. In my experience if DDG or Ecosia can't find something, then neither can Google. In some cases I still check with !g, but Google is now worse than both DDG and Ecosia (which is funny because Ecosia partially uses Google).

It may be related to which type of content you search for, field of work or even how you search, but you're certainly not the only one I've heard complain that they need !g way to often for alternatives to be viable.

Google is very good is you need to buy something though. Their ad system yields rather good results, most of the time. Lately I've noticed that they are more and more serving ads for questionable drop shippers and foreign webshops, rather than brands I trust, so they might also be declining in that department.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#226

Post by shmeeed »

bayesnet wrote: post #207
thisislife2 wrote: post #172

> Layer 3: Paid, subscription-based search Should actually be - Layer 3: Paid, ad-free , subscription-based search. (It's a subtle omission that indicates the direction Kagi search will eventually take).

It should actually be “Layer 3: Paid, ad-free, asbestos free, subscription-based search”. Come on. I don’t think it’s productive to make decisive and conspiratorial declarations on the future of Kagi search because they didn’t use the magic words you like. [ And since I know freediver is active here I want to state plainly that I would cancel immediately if there is so much as a hint of an ad in the Kagi results ;) ]…

From the comments, I get the feeling that Kagi's customers are just a particularly paranoid bunch. ;)

Anybody is free to cancel their subscription the moment Kagi turns out a malicious actor. And then... go back to Google, I guess?

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#227

Post by zanderz »

ghm2199 wrote: post #73
KellyCriterion wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scraping is hard. Very good scraping is even harder. And today, being a scraping business is veeery difficult; there are some "open"/public indices, but none of these other indices ever took off

Well sure yes, I don't contend with the fact that its hard, but if the top tech companies joined their heads I am sure if for example, Meta, Apple, MS have enough talent between to make an open source index if only to reap gains from the de-monopolization of it all.

I learned on here that this has been happening to a degree with maps. Several big companies have been cooperating to improve open street map data, a rare example of a beneficial commons. This is probably some unique accident of incentives and timing and history but maybe it could happen in other domains.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#228

Post by eli »

ancillary wrote: post #214
malfist wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's stance is "I can copy you and you can't stop me" as well as "You can't copy me, I'll sue you"

Google at least claims that noindex will keep your site from getting crawled [1]. Do people think this is false? [1] https://developers.google.com/search/docs/crawling-indexing/...

Strictly speaking no, that doesn’t prevent crawling - at the least Googlebot has to fetch the page to see the meta tag or the robots.txt to see what’s allowed, and it will periodically recheck for changes.

It doesn’t even prevent indexing. If a page is linked from elsewhere, Google will show it in search results even if noindex’d.

And why does Google get to set these rules on my site anyway? I didn’t agree to them.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#229

Post by idiotsecant »

WhereIsTheTruth wrote: post #39

Kagi's "waiting for dawn" is just waiting for Google to legitimize their reseller business Meanwhile, users pay a premium to pretend they're not using Google Fascinating delusion

users pay a premium for superior UX and no tracking, actually. Kagi has wildly better filtering and customization.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#230

Post by idiotsecant »

yuugha1838 wrote: post #113
b3kart wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, users pay a premium to pretend they're not using Google My searches can’t be tied to me by Google for their ad targeting: this is worth paying a premium for, and I am glad Kagi are providing this service. You seem to have a very limited understanding of the value Kagi provides.

I have a limited understanding of the value Christianity provides. That neither means that Christianity provides no value, nor does it mean that God exists.

Uh oh you're eating your tail again
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