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The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

lewiscampbell.tech

221–230 of 295 posts

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#221

I somewhat agree with this poster. However, I think the unfortunate reality of programming for money is that a mediocre programmer that pumps out millions of lines of slop that seems to drive the business forward and manages to hide disastrous bugs until after the contract / promotion cycle is over will get further ahead than the more competent programmer that delivers better, less buggy, less spaghetti code.

Most of us are paid to solve problems and deliver features, not craft the most perfect code known to man.

If the slop-o-matic next to you is delivering 5 features a week without tripping up QA and you do one every two weeks - which one will the company pick when layoffs hit again?

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#222
post #14

This doesn't feel completely right. Simon Wilson (known for Django) has been doing a lot of LLM evangelism on his blog these days. Antirez (Redis) wrote a blog post recently with the same vibe. I doubt they are not good programmers. They are probably better than most of us, and I doubt they feel insecure because of the LLMs. Either I'm wrong, or there's something more to this. edit: to clarify, I'm not saying Simon a…

Simon just explores stuff and writes about them. Doesn't mean he uses LLMs for everyting.Antirez likes to question stuff and make them better. Doesn't mean he uses LLMs for everything.

Also their experience is not my experience. I will make my own choices.

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#223
post #16

"LLM evangelists - are you willing to admit that you just might not be that good at programming computers?" No.

Came here to comment on this line: it completely changes the tone of the article. It's fairly reasonable and neutral until we get here, upon which the antagonism is jarringly clear. In fact I would posit this is the central crux of the post: OP does not believe those LLM evangelists were ever good programmers. As others have already noted[1], many well-known excellent programmers - including yourself! and now even Li…

Linus doesn't seem like an LLM evangelist: "Linus Torvalds is OK with vibe coding as long as it's not used for anything that matters" at https://www.theregister.com/2025/11/18/linus_torvalds_vibe_c...

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#224
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After a certain experience level though, I think most of us get to the point of knowing what that difference in quality actually matters. Some seniors love to bikeshed PRs all day because they can do it better but generally that activity has zero actual value. Sometimes it matters, often it doesn't. Stop with the "I could do this better by hand" and ask "is it worth the extra 4 hours to do this by hand, or is this ac…

now sometimes that's 4 hours, but I've had plenty of times where I'm "racing" people using LLMs and I basically get the coding done before them. Once I debugged an issue before the robot was done `ls`-ing the codebase! The shape of the problem is super important in considering the results here

People usually talk about how they're better than LLMs in the domains they're experts and with known codebases.

What about all the other, large amounts of cases? Don't you ever face situations in which an LLM can greatly help (and outrace) you?

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#225
post #31
post #14

This doesn't feel completely right. Simon Wilson (known for Django) has been doing a lot of LLM evangelism on his blog these days. Antirez (Redis) wrote a blog post recently with the same vibe. I doubt they are not good programmers. They are probably better than most of us, and I doubt they feel insecure because of the LLMs. Either I'm wrong, or there's something more to this. edit: to clarify, I'm not saying Simon a…

The author claims it's not just that one evangelizes it, but that they become hostile when someone claims to not have the same experience in response. I don't recall Either Willison or Antirez scaring people by saying they will be left behind or that they are just afraid of becoming irrelevant. Instead they just talk about their positive experiences using it. Willison and Antirez seem to be fine to live and let live…

Antirez:

>Skipping AI is not going to help you or your career. Think about it.

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#226
This has been my experience as well.

What I use LLMs for

I don't use Claude Code, Codex or any other hyped-up, VC-approved, buzzword-compliant, productivity-theater SF tool for actual day-to-day coding. I just use ChatGPT outside of my editor in browser.

The only tasks that I feel LLMs right now can do somewhat-reliably without human supervision include:

1. Search: To search and compare different things; that is boring to do manually. As an example, I checked how M1 Pro compares to M4. ChatGPT crawls the web to compare both the processors on similar specs and provides a conclusion but I need to check and verify the claims it reached by briefly reading the sources.

2. Documentation: I have to do things on time so I offload reading documentations for syntax or how-to-do-it-with-this-library to ChatGPT.

3. Single task scripts: I let ChatGPT create me boring and one-time-use python scripts for trivial tasks.

I don't spend ChatGPT's limited but free GPT-5-(latest-model) tokens for such trivial tasks - I have a special keybinding on my mac that fires up ChatGPT in incognito for me.

But don't get me wrong, I find LLMs pretty useful for PoC-level stuff and I do like instructing my agents to make me a half-baked PoC that makes me feel like a revolutionary SF-founder for an afternoon before I delete the repo and go back to writing real code like a responsible adult. Because nothing says ‘disruptive genius’ like ctrl+z and moving on.

---

Why I find vibe coding in production not useful

Like sean goedecke, I feel that using LLMs in production is not useful and (in fact) anti-productive because it gives junior engineer's free pass to push code without actually learning/reading it (Humans often tend to chose the easiest path to accomplish given problem). And due to this, its a pain to review junior PR these days.

I have two reasons why LLMs are not good at production coding:

1. Context: There are enough discussions out on the internet that says LLMs are limited by context. Humans are better because they can handle and work with multiple contexts in mind - an LLMs knows how to solve the user problem, but the engineer knows what business problem this piece of code solves, in which context the code will run, with other process on same service and in which context of other services, what company code idioms to follow while writing code and what will make your pair-programmer think that you are smart.

2. Lack of deterministic output: I would not over-simply by saying its just a probabilistic system but you can feel it right? It would sometimes give correct, decent and sometimes wrong answers for the same prompt. Sometimes it would enlighten you with a very interesting insight/perspective and other times it would be as dumb as a toaster trying to file your taxes - consistently inconsistent (when you reached context rot), yet somehow still sold as “intelligent.”

---

A brief rant

My manager fear-mongers me nearly everyday saying LLMs are really good at coding, there are at-most 10 years left to earn as programmer and stuff. The fact he is hasn't touched coding in last 8 years.

He thinks his half-baked trivial ideas translated to code by an overpriced probabilistic system is a breakthrough for his company.

I am non-native english speaker and you would have probably sensed that by now. I often get tasks to write documentations, and every time my manager doesn't understand something, he takes it as a chance to break my confidence saying that you are bad at using LLM for language related tasks because my english is poor.

But (at-least right now) I strongly feel this is just a hype:

- CEOs want to get-rich-quick or they want to increase company profits by "ai-enabling" it and getting salary hikes.

- Companies are hyping this tech to recalibrate engineer salaries that has skyrocketed since covid.

- My manager wants to make me feel replaceable.

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#227
post #225
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author claims it's not just that one evangelizes it, but that they become hostile when someone claims to not have the same experience in response. I don't recall Either Willison or Antirez scaring people by saying they will be left behind or that they are just afraid of becoming irrelevant. Instead they just talk about their positive experiences using it. Willison and Antirez seem to be fine to live and let live…

Antirez: >Skipping AI is not going to help you or your career. Think about it.

Or maybe it will.

Smart guy, but he can speak for himself.

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#228

I don't mind weighing in as someone who could fairly be categorized as both an LLM evangelist and "not an experienced dev". It's a lot like why I've been bullish on Tesla's approach to FSD even as someone who owned an AP1 vehicle that objectively was NOT "self-driving" in any sense of the word: it's less about where the technology is right now , or even the speed the technology is currently improving at, and more abo…

I agree with your POV. Technology has been improved exponentially and from a human POV having systems smarter than us can be good (if we have control over them but to think about that makes us smarter and powerful, but that's another discussion).

I agree with this but I just don't believe that the "promised AI" would be an LLM but some other technology.

> But specialized harnesses paired with frontier models are also better security engineers than I am, dollar for dollar versus my cost. They're better pentesters than me, for the relative costs.

Don't mind but some parts of cybersecurity are more brute-force in nature, where AI excels, but using that to claim frontier models are better security engineers than humans is a bit of an oversimplification. You are BETTER because of your expertise of X years in cyber security, and I can assure you that there is not frontier model out there with the context capacity to challenge you on that. And that makes you a 10x or even 100x more cost effective (dollar-wise). And your (perceived) cost will go on increasing with each adding year to your experience. AI can do things faster than you but your judgement on which subtree/direction to traverse while pentesting makes you a better than an LLM and the cost of this (human) judgement will increase day-by-day because other humans need other humans to take accountability.

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#229

I don't mind weighing in as someone who could fairly be categorized as both an LLM evangelist and "not an experienced dev". It's a lot like why I've been bullish on Tesla's approach to FSD even as someone who owned an AP1 vehicle that objectively was NOT "self-driving" in any sense of the word: it's less about where the technology is right now , or even the speed the technology is currently improving at, and more abo…

I agree with your POV. Technology has been improved exponentially and from a human POV having systems smarter than us can be good (if we have control over them but to think about that makes us smarter and powerful, but that's another discussion). I agree with this but I just don't believe that the "promised AI" would be an LLM but some other technology. > But specialized harnesses paired with frontier models are also…

[dead]

Re: The insecure evangelism of LLM maximalists

#230
post #121
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"actually good enough to meet the goals?" There's "okay for now" and then there's "this is so crap that if we set our bar this low we'll be knee deep in tech debt in a month". A lot of LLM output in the specific areas _I_ work in is firmly in that latter category and many times just doesn't work.

So I can tell you don’t use these tools, or at least much, because at the speed of development with them you’ll be knee deep in tech debt in a day, not a month, but as a corollary can have the same agentic coding tools undergo the equivalent of weeks of addressing tech debt the next day. Well, I think this applies to greenfield AI-first oriented projects that work this way from the get go and with few humans in the l…

Yes if I went hard on something greenfield I'm sure I'll be knee deep in tech debt in less than a day.

That being said, given the quality of code these things produce, I just don't see that ever stopping being the case. These things require a lot of supervision and at some point you are spending more time asking for revisions than just writing it yourself.

There's a world of difference between an MPV which, in the right domain, you can get done much faster now, and a finished product.

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