Live data from Hacker News

Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

phrack.org

221–230 of 262 posts

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#221
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's that supposed to mean? The misconception is that if a bank has a capital X, the law gives them power to create loans up to 10X. What I'm saying is that without the law, the bank could create loans without a constraint, so say 20X, 100X 1000X. The fractional reserve policy is actually a limit, not the source of lending in excess of capital. Loans are money creation, and this creation is organic, it doesn't nee…

> What I'm saying is that without the law, the bank could create loans without a constraint, so say 20X, 100X 1000X. No, they couldn't, and they didn't when no such laws existed. Canada and Scotland had prominent episodes in their histories when banking was fairly lightly regulated and no such laws existed; and their banks did not create '1000X' loans from thin air. > Another misconception is that this money creation…

Besides the discussion of who is right, I think both theories are quite standard and we would benefit from learning the standard terms.

Regarding your theory of gold deposits being behind money creation is on Wikipedia as Metallism.

Regarding how banks worked before such laws existed, we could look at the period immediately before the creation of fractional reserve, I would predict that immediately before the rule was put in place, the banks were creating these 1000X (maybe 100X? I don't know) which caused a bank run. Without looking, the history of fiat money is quite recent, 1 century or maybe even less? So this shouldn't be too long ago. It is possible for banking working correctly for a long time without the rule, it might have been a short period, kind of like how soccer worked without offside rule for a long time, but it was put in place to stop some specific type of play anti-sportsmanlike play, not to enable another.

>I agree on the first and last part. I'm not what you mean by organic.

I think a more standard term is endogenous, as in an emergent behaviour of private individuals, rather than exogenous, as in set by a central bank. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_money

>What is that supposed to mean?

You are right these are not standard terms, I meant gross money creation as money that is created with a corresponding liability. For example a loan, or a loan with a mortgage on land. The money base increases, but so does the size of the economy represented by that currency in equal increments. Endogenous money seems to map quite cleanly to gross money. Although not all exogenous money is "net" (as in creating currency without an underlying asset).

>No, it would absolutely contribute to inflation. As a thought experiment: just imagine the government banned private money creation tomorrow. Inflation would totally crash and the economy would collapse from a lack of demand.

One of the examples of exogenous money that does create inflation and I would say it's net money creation (for lack of a standard term I don't know about), would be seignorage, a term that comes from metal economies, where they would reduce the amount of valuable metal in coins, and the value of the coins was maintained by the trust, power and guarantee of the imperial seals imprinted on them, this gradually lead to fiat valuable metal was completely removed.

Nowadays it seems the term seignorage is still used to refer to the revenue created by the state whenever it 'prints' money without a liability. It is important to distinguish this from endogenous money creation like loans and clarify that the latter doesn't cause inflation, and if it does its effect would be minimal when compared to seignorage.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#222
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which jurisdictions tax unrealized capital gains? Asking for a friend so I can avoid passing through.

Denmark is one of them. Germany has something similar. But you can ask your friendly neighbourhood LLM for details on the world's jurisdictions to get a complete list.

Denmark taxes unrealized gains in accumulating funds, unless they are on the “exception-list” (SKATs positivliste) or you use the tax advantaged “aktiesparekonto”.

If you buy regular stocks in a regular brokerage account, you do not incur taxes before selling (with profit).

Same for dividend-distributing ETFs.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#223
post #180
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graeber is controversial. Archeologists hate how he argues by ad hominem and does not appear to understand the works he cites, to make his argument. I can't speak to his work on finance as a whole. Regarding deep time, his claims about pre-literate society from archeology are not widely supported, they use thin evidence to argue badly. His anarcho-socialism isn't the concern. It's his lack of historicity, and inabili…

As a fan of Graeber, I’m interesting in reading counter arguments to his writing. Could you point out where I can read up more about what archaeologists think of his writing?

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3wc3p3hf

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#224
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, that's about as valid as listening to sovereign citizens' interpretation of the US constitution. (At least from the Catholic point of view as far as I can tell.) From an "axiomatic perspective" this means accepting much more encompassing axioms than the holy scripture; such a "proof" requires much more than "the Bible/Quran says" as huijzer implicitly used in his argument "That’s why the Bible and Quran are a…

Nah, you can start from the Pope, and you only care about the Bible insofar as the Pope says you should care about it. Very simple 'axiom'.

But then you should not argue that the Bible says something, but that the Pope does. :-)

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#225
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are fixating on one tiny point which isn't really that important within OP's ... errm "opus". Why not critique the entire work? Anyway: I borrow 100 from someone. I am now in debt and they are in credit - to balance, both are 100. However, they require a return on investment - usury: 10 for 100 (or a 10% margin - call it what you like). When I take out my loan, I am in debt for 110 and they are in credit for 100…

You can't have taken a class on finance and/or accounting and passed it. This is 101 material, literally. Read the CPAs take. And, in my initial comment i explicitly point out the error - the interest amount should not be there. People don't tend to show the working for zero * x = zero. This misunderstanding of a very fundamental piece makes any material on this topic by this author not worth reading. It might render…

Not OP and not an accountant.

I see the reasoning for accountants keeping future liabilities off of the balance sheet. I do this myself in multiple contexts.

Still, when making decisions about whether to take out or grant a loan (personal or business) I need to consider future "value" and cash flows. To someone running a business this is probably more important than the balance sheet. So I think the interest recording criticism is valid but relatively minor in the context of the whole article.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#226

This is bad, don't read it. When you borrow $100 you do not create a liability which includes the interest to be paid. People who don't understand the very basics of finance and accounting shouldn't write about finance and accounting.

Balance sheets and accounting are made up. You know in maths how you could do calculations on two different ways and arrive at the same result? That's what the author is doing. "Proper accounting" is how you do it, but you could actually just think of it this way. It makes no difference to the end result.

You won't end up with the same result, that's the problem.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#227
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epicycles in a geocentric model of the solar system is another way of looking at planetary motion. It breaks down due to the required addition of complexity to explain discrepancies between the model and truth, which is the same for this particular situation. In addition to what the CPA said, how does this model work with callable, putable, or floating rate bonds where the interest payment is not known up front?

I understand there's a reason why accountants do things the way they do. But hacking is about looking at things differently. To use your analogy, one can definitely gain insight into planetary motion from a geocentric model even if it's not the best model for all purposes.

Generally speaking, "hacking" is about thinking things in a different way that is generally better or at least more useful in a certain situation. The author's explanation is strictly worse.

It's just another confident fool spouting off about a topic they don't understand. The article is 90% trash.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have taken a class on finance and/or accounting and passed it. This is 101 material, literally. Read the CPAs take. And, in my initial comment i explicitly point out the error - the interest amount should not be there. People don't tend to show the working for zero * x = zero. This misunderstanding of a very fundamental piece makes any material on this topic by this author not worth reading. It might render…

Not OP and not an accountant. I see the reasoning for accountants keeping future liabilities off of the balance sheet. I do this myself in multiple contexts. Still, when making decisions about whether to take out or grant a loan (personal or business) I need to consider future "value" and cash flows. To someone running a business this is probably more important than the balance sheet. So I think the interest recordin…

It's not keeping future liabilities off balance sheet. It's marking them at their current value. Same thing for assets. Nobody wants to see a balance sheet where 30 year government bonds are written down at the sum of all interest payments to be received plus the principal. If you did that, you'd have balance sheets jumping all around the place as companies just managed cash on a day to day basis.

The vast majority of the article is trash. It's wrong in many situations. The only reason the accounting issue was brought up is it's early, and so incredibly stupid that it renders the rest of the thing untrustworthy. The rest is bad. If you don't think so, you don't know the subject and are learning from bad sources.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#229
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except in practice it always fail to materialize, neoliberalism has repeatedly been tried everywhere in the western world, resulting in decline instead of prosperity. Are we living in the same world? All over the place, we see that more neoliberal places are richer than less neoliberal places. For example, Ireland is richer than Germany which is richer than Greece. > As if the only difference was regulations, and n…

Singapore and Lichtenstein are probably the richest by PPP and they are what I would describe as benevolent monarchies (at least under LKY it was) that have managed to implement classic liberal market policies precisely because they have suppressed some or many components of neoliberalist representative democracy. LKY basically in a nutshell said 'you get the free market * because I fucking said so and I am smarter t…

Singapore has free and fair elections that international election observers never have found fault with. LKY regularly won elections, and his party still wins elections.

> * Well not for houses, but like half of Singapore is immigrants that can be taxed to pay for the other half's houses so it works out for them.

The proportion of immigrants is lower than what you say, and we are not taxed more than residents. (I'm an immigrant to Singapore.) In fact, they once even gave me a 50% income tax one-off rebate just because in that year they took in more money than they needed. If I were a politician, I would have only given that one-off rebate to citizens, you know the people who can actually vote for you.

Re: Calling All Hackers: How money works (2024)

#230
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except in practice it always fail to materialize, neoliberalism has repeatedly been tried everywhere in the western world, resulting in decline instead of prosperity. Are we living in the same world? All over the place, we see that more neoliberal places are richer than less neoliberal places. For example, Ireland is richer than Germany which is richer than Greece. > As if the only difference was regulations, and n…

> Are we living in the same world? I live in the western world. In a continent that gave ordoliberal (the German branch of the Mont Pellerin society) principles a quasi-constitutional values. And that continent has fallen behind both the government-debt pumped US and the state-driven China, down from a dominant position when the said principles were raised as supreme laws. In fact, the very country that invented rail…

Ireland is richer if you look at labour income, too. I agree that its GDP numbers are a bit weird.

China is poorer than the EU.

> The regulations put in place in the 30s after the great depression were relaxed by Reagan, and unsurprisingly it lead to the reemergence if financial crisis after half a century of financial stability.

The US had inane financial regulations right from the start. And I'm not sure what you are smoking: have you heard of the Great Moderation? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Moderation

Post reply on HN