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The Post-American Internet

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Re: The Post-American Internet

#221

Post by throw-12-16 »

soco wrote: post #171
everdrive wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile phones are baffling to me. I heard a story recently that the Venezuelan government is stopping people on the street and inspecting mobile phones for dissident content. In such an environment, why are people relying on phones for anything? Why trust it at all? This stupid device _could_ get you taken to prison for merely having the wrong ideas, but you've still _just got to_ use it! I'm starting to think that i…

Venezuela you say? The US would be checking my entire social media history, not only what is on the phone, if I ever plan to enter the US.

I'm entering the US for work in a few weeks and I plan on taking burner devices.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#222

Post by mobtrain »

jansper39 wrote: post #205
tmcz26 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Tolerance Paradox is something I’ve been discussing lately with family and friends, but was having a hard time articulating. Thanks for the link. I see tons of parallels with today’s world, on both sides of the spectrum (left/right, woke/unwoke etc). Like, I do agree that most speech should be free and that dark humour and unpopular ideas and whatnot should be allowed even if you or a portion of the population d…

The last line of that news article is quite important here. He was also arrested for a harassment charge which if memory serves was more serious than his tweets alone.

Your memory does not serve it seems at least I can not find anything “more serious” with a cursory search.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#223

Post by 4bpp »

Unfortunately, all it will take is an appropriate choice of story about "Nazis"/"child predators"/"pirates"/"terrorists"/"Russian bots" sideloading unregulated apps or disabling the GPS trackers on their cars, and every prospective member of Doctorow's great new coalition (including most everyone in attendance when the talk was given) can be peeled away with ease.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#224

Post by Gormo »

gradus_ad wrote: post #188
hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that EU surveillance is greater than US surveillance is almost certainly mistaken. In fact, a huge reason that the EU is looking to move away from U.S. commercial providers is that they can’t guarantee they won’t be giving the U.S. govt information about EU users even if they setup completely independent EU based entities. The reason why it might appear that the EU is more heavy handed is because the EU is a…

Regulate (censor) =/= surveil

Surveil ⊂ regulate.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#225

Post by twixfel »

leishman wrote: post #187
akie wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the US media (and Elon Musk) call EU censorship is actually a request to follow EU rules if they want to operate in the EU market. What, exactly, is controversial about that?

What’s controversial is that EU rules force censorship.

It's not that controversial, every single country has limits on speech, including the US. So European countries control a little bit more than the US, largely when it comes to racial abuse and other hate speech. So? The American model when combined with social media and the internet appears to have disastrous outcomes, judging by who has been elected there. It clearly worked in the past, but not any more.

Americans supposedly being outraged at other free, democratic countries (often in reality both more free and democratic than the US) having different laws regarding speech is really just a smoke screen for what they really want: for their social media companies and billionaires to completely control our media, so that we end up just as fucked up and insane as they are. In the end if we allow Americans to poison our countries, we will lose our freedoms and democracies. Why would we allow that? What do you expect?

P.S. it's cringe to cry about lack of free speech in Europe as if we've changed. We never, ever had 100% free speech in Europe. Stop trying to hark back to some free speech utopia that literally never existed. This is the continent that up until 110 years ago was overwhelmingly ruled by kings and queens and indeed we are in many ways far more conservative than you are. Get over it and stop trying to turn us into you.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#226

Post by Quothling »

hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #145
Quothling wrote: post #4

I've spent a couple of decades in the Danish public sector of digitalisation and in the private sector for global green energy. 10 years ago people would've laughed if you talked about leaving Microsoft and iOS in enterprise. Now we all have contingency plans for just that, and a lot of organisations are already actually doing it. So I would argue that there is more of a crack, but I'm not sure the post-american inte…

The idea that EU surveillance is greater than US surveillance is almost certainly mistaken. In fact, a huge reason that the EU is looking to move away from U.S. commercial providers is that they can’t guarantee they won’t be giving the U.S. govt information about EU users even if they setup completely independent EU based entities. The reason why it might appear that the EU is more heavy handed is because the EU is a…

> The idea that EU surveillance is greater than US surveillance is almost certainly mistaken.

Well yes, but that doesn't mean we want EU surveillance to replace it.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#227

Post by techdmn »

u_sama wrote: post #196
great69 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just assume it doesn’t matter where you live or who you are- anyone can have your data. It’s not admitting defeat. It’s just being safe and sane. To the point of the post though, please note that saying the internet is American (it’s not, it’s global) or publically giving up on the U.S. because of POTUS, three letter agencies, attitudes, etc. is not helping you win the many Americans over that may join you in some…

My POV is Americans are not an ally in any case, and all efforts must be made to increase self-reliance and disentanglement from the US. Both parties of the US disrregard european interests. An argument can be made the Internet is actually Chinese because the atoms your bit relies on are mostly produced in China or Taiwan.

Am American, can confirm. I largely disagree with the idea that U.S. citizens chose their government, there are many, many filters, restrictions and unnecessary complications specifically designed to prevent politics having too much influence on policy, and our militarized police force is only too happy to deal with any inconvenient protestors. (Not to mention literal military deployments to several of our cities.) On the other hand, I am routinely amazed at enthusiasm among the public for surveillance, such as the opinion that FLOCK cameras are justified because they might help catch people exceeding the speed limit. Never underestimate the average person's desire to monitor and control other people.

Edit to clarify: I and many Americans are trying hard to be your allies, but it's not clear we have the leverage to be effective. Shit is locked down pretty tight over here.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#228

Post by Quothling »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #104
Quothling wrote: post #4

I've spent a couple of decades in the Danish public sector of digitalisation and in the private sector for global green energy. 10 years ago people would've laughed if you talked about leaving Microsoft and iOS in enterprise. Now we all have contingency plans for just that, and a lot of organisations are already actually doing it. So I would argue that there is more of a crack, but I'm not sure the post-american inte…

For computers we have linux, ok, but how are iOS and Android being replaced?

If the EU made a decent certification option so that the Google Store wasn't necessary for a lot of our apps, then Graphene and similar would be good replacements. As it is I couldn't use a single app on my android phone (I basically only have public sector apps + banking) without the Google Store thing. Since these all either require the Google Store themselves or the national digital ID which does

Re: The Post-American Internet

#229

Post by Cthulhu_ »

ta9000 wrote: post #214

Americans aren’t your enemy. We’re just as upset by these idiots running our government as you are.

It's not an either / or though; enough Americans are in support of the government, that's how democracy works. Nobody can speak for everyone.

Re: The Post-American Internet

#230

Post by throwawayqqq11 »

leishman wrote: post #187
akie wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the US media (and Elon Musk) call EU censorship is actually a request to follow EU rules if they want to operate in the EU market. What, exactly, is controversial about that?

What’s controversial is that EU rules force censorship.

Ask Alex Jones about his free speech on Sandy Hook to understand how bad (EU) censorship really is!

Jokes aside. Restriction of freedoms, including speech, is not bad by definition, it's the scale and intention behind it that matters but this aspect is always missing, kind of censored, in public debate. You may downvote me now :-)

Edit: In the same sense, Alon does not cry about specific and obviously unjustified cases of EU censorship on X.

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