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Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

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Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#221

Post by LexiMax »

torginus wrote: post #201
podgorniy wrote: post #20

Good for them. During economic downturns, when fewer resources are available for redistribution, collective action across population groups can help address worsening power imbalances.

Well, this economic downturn might have something to do with the games industry continuing to push out products that nobody wanted (or were no good in the first place) at absolutely lavish budgets. It didn't seemingly come out of nowhere. Cue Concorde. If you spend half a billion, to make a game that's five multiplayer maps, fail to do any market research, to find out that the part of your audience that isn't indiffe…

I wasn't aware that id software made Concorde.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#222

Post by cogman10 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #199
kristofferg wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are part of a healthy market economy. The succesful suppression of unions is a market failure.

Unions are basically useless in a healthy market economy because then companies have to compete for customers and employees instead of having a monopoly, which causes them to have thin margins and therefore leave nothing on the table for collective bargaining to extract that wasn't already being extracted through competitive pressure. Meanwhile unions in a consolidated market have the perverse incentive to sustain th…

Unions are about building worker rights and protections into the business expenses. When they are industry wide, it prevents any company from gaining an advantage by exploiting their workers.

A strong market economy is orthogonal to the treatment of workers. For example, the economy of the early US was both very competitive and had slavery. Same for islands like Jamaica.

The ideal is government regulation ensuring worker rights. Barring that, unions fill the role. Unions exist to fill a void created by a low regulation market. They are the libertarian solution.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#223

Post by criddell »

ecshafer wrote: post #109
an_cap wrote: post #100

FWIW, the union (CWA) via its Seattle affiliate tried to get OPT banned, a visa status that many readers of HN benefited from - https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/cadc/2... . I encourage HN readers to better understand the relationship between unions and immigration before deciding whether they are in favor of joining/supporting unions.

Of course they did. Unions are always going to be against immigrant labor.

That's not true. The MLBPA (baseball players) is definitely not anti-immigrant.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#224

Post by torginus »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #211
torginus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this economic downturn might have something to do with the games industry continuing to push out products that nobody wanted (or were no good in the first place) at absolutely lavish budgets. It didn't seemingly come out of nowhere. Cue Concorde. If you spend half a billion, to make a game that's five multiplayer maps, fail to do any market research, to find out that the part of your audience that isn't indiffe…

There are movie flops, yet also there is an actors union. Workers are allowed to be paid even if management makes bad decisions. The company can go bankrupt, doesn't mean workers shouldn't get paid.

Are being wages owed here? If so, the company either can't pay them, and should be considered bankrupt, or is unlawfully holding them back, in which case they should be sued.

But is this actually the case here?

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#226

Post by torginus »

LexiMax wrote: post #221
torginus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this economic downturn might have something to do with the games industry continuing to push out products that nobody wanted (or were no good in the first place) at absolutely lavish budgets. It didn't seemingly come out of nowhere. Cue Concorde. If you spend half a billion, to make a game that's five multiplayer maps, fail to do any market research, to find out that the part of your audience that isn't indiffe…

I wasn't aware that id software made Concorde.

They did not, but since the parent comment alluded to there being financial trouble, I was just pointing out one of the most egregious examples of mismanagement in recent memory.

Unfortunately, the AAA industry is not in a good spot right now, I remember there being an article that there was not a single AAA game at some point in the Steam Best Sellers list.

id and Bethesda isn't doing quite so badly, but their most recent games have been meh.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#227

Post by ArlenBales »

daft_pink wrote: post #50

I don’t understand what gives the union power at the end of the day when the company could easily outsource development and license their ip and fire everyone. Automotive plants have large factories, but when the primary assets are intangible intellectual property, I don’t understand how much power a union really has.

> I don’t understand what gives the union power at the end of the day when the company could easily outsource development and license their ip and fire everyone.

Gamers are very passionate about their games and the companies behind them. They are also very anti-AI, pro consumer rights, and pro unions. At least the vocal majority of gamers, such as on /r/games, which is where a good portion of gaming journalists get their takes.

It would be the end of id Software from a PR standpoint if they fired union developers responsible for their beloved titles, specifically the recent DOOM titles. The bad PR would also extend to ZeniMax, Bethesda, and Microsoft.

That said, gamers are also the worst at voting with their wallet. Despite all the bad union PR Rockstar North is receiving, pretty much everyone in support of the fired employees will probably still end up buying GTA6 because of FOMO and hype.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#228

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cogman10 wrote: post #208
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of those were instances of the management purposely screwing people, but let's suppose some of them were. Should the conclusion then be that we should find ways to prevent that from happening again, or should it be that two wrongs make a right?

Not all businesses fail because of unions, but let's suppose some of them did. Should the conclusion then be that we should find ways to prevent that from happening again, or should it be that two wrongs make a right? It goes both ways. There are plenty of nations with strong unions throughout. In the US some work is primarily done by unions (such as trade work). The fact that someone can pull up an example where a u…

> It goes both ways.

That's the point. We should prevent management from destroying productive companies and prevent unions from doing it, instead of saying "what about those other guys" to justify the bad behavior of either of them.

> In the US some work is primarily done by unions (such as trade work).

You're referring to some of the least efficient industries in the US with high levels of regulatory capture. The fact that there is no test-based path to occupational licensing in many trades, only multi-year "apprenticeship" (i.e. permission from an incumbent), is one of the big reasons construction costs so much, people can't afford housing and government construction projects consistently blow the budget.

> If you wanted to convince me to get rid of unions, you'd do it by setting up robust workers rights nationally which unions provide.

Most "worker protections" are nothing better than highly inefficient alternatives to unemployment insurance. If you have competitive markets then you don't need regulatory protections because companies are subject to competitive pressure. If you don't have competitive markets then you're unconditionally screwed and the first thing you need is to fix that.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#229

Post by hinkley »

podgorniy wrote: post #20

Good for them. During economic downturns, when fewer resources are available for redistribution, collective action across population groups can help address worsening power imbalances.

In an 'economic downturn' where the rich keep getting richer, at least. This is a very weird downturn.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#230

Post by overfeed »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #220
vkou wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've also seen collective ruin many many times when societies have embraced economic and market concepts. Seen the rust belt anytime lately?

That's probably not a great example given that the rust belt was thick with unions. And in general the US has a cost of living problem because the various levels of government keep getting captured by people who want regulations that make costs to go up because they're the ones getting the money. That makes US workers less competitive because of the corruption-induced regulatory costs, which is exactly the opposite o…

> That's probably not a great example given that the rust belt was thick with unions.

Perhaps we need to complete the thought here: was it the unions or executives that decided to offshore manufacturing? If the counterargument that unions are to blame for offshoring by "artificially" increasing the cost of labor, and should have competed with Chinese labor on price and they got their just deserts: then why are executives now (successfully) lobbying for protectionism against Chinese manufacturers? Why can't capital handle the type of rugged capitalism they inflict on American workers? If chinese goods could be ported as easily and cheaply into America and American labor was ported to China, there'd be blood on the floor.

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