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UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

alecmuffett.com

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Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way easier to justify banning social media entirely than banning it for under-sixteens. Paradoxically it infringes on freedom less, as it bans a type of business model for being too harmful rather than restricting people's rights to view and share information.

And who gets to decide which platforms count as 'social media'? This is a problem with Australia's attempt to ban kids from it, where there's some surprising exemptions from the restrictions.

> And who gets to decide which platforms count as 'social media'?

The voting public via their elected representatives, as with literally all laws.

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#222

I've been waiting for this for some time. It's an obvious loophole in the current rules. So how long will we have to wait before it dawns on them that VPNs are also used to circumvent IP address blocks in the UK, and other countries of course.

> So how long will we have to wait before it dawns on them

I think the whole idea is that we don't have to wait, and that "it dawned on them" before they even wrote the draft law.

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#223
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German prosecutors actually did a bizarre and out-of-touch (for an American audience) interview with 60 Minutes recently where they proudly declare they're going to bring order to the Internet and how things like calling politicians "dicks"[1] is rightfully VERBOTEN. > But it was a 2021 case involving a local politician named Andy Grote that captured the country's attention. Grote complained about a tweet, that calle…

Germany does not protect free speech the way the US does. You're free to voice any opinion, but the exact wordings in which you are allowed to do it are restricted. You are allowed to say "I hate Merz" but not "Merz is a piece of garbage". I'm not saying this is good, but it's not recent and it does not prevent free communication of ideas.

As we have seen, it is very easy to declare certain beliefs beyond contestation and any disagreement with them as insulting/inciting hate/etc.

That's why freedom of speech must entail the freedom to say things people find offensive, or there's no free communication of ideas at all. The state and ruling elites will determine that there is a set of proscribed ideas and a set of approved ideas and yours fall into the wrong set.

Banning speech and ideas also accelerates extremist - Weimar had very strong hate speech laws and prosecuted and imprisoned Nazis many many times. [1] The Nazis turned around and used the same laws on their enemies. Then the Stasi with similar motives used similar means. Suppressing speech in the name of order seems to be a German cultural value.

[1] https://www.thefire.org/news/blogs/eternally-radical-idea/wo...

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#224
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any relevant device supplied for use in the UK must have installed tamper-proof system software It's happening. Computer freedom, everything the word "hacker" ever stood for, will be officially destroyed if this passes. We're about to be robbed of control over our computers by force of law . It's just the UK now but eventually it will be every country. This is a very dark day. I've been prophesizing its arrival for…

The absurd thing is that the amendment only covers smartphones and tablets - which means those who the bill aims to target can easily break the law by using a laptop, desktop, camera, smart TV etc. In short, the Pandora's Box of automated surveillance and security risk on any smartphone or tablet is opened, while a gigantic loophole for serious offenders is left open.

Computers are too powerful, too subversive for us citizens to have access to.

Give citizens computers and they can copy at will, making a mockery out of things like copyright, they'd wipe out entire sectors of the economy if left unchecked.

Give citizens computers and they will have cryptography which can defeat police, judges, governments, spies, militaries.

They cannot tolerate it. They will eventually lock everything down. PCs were left out because everyone is on mobile these days, not because they are opposed to locking them down. They will close the loophole if it becomes an issue. Besides, with remote attestation they can just designate those devices as untrustworthy and ban them from everything.

It's a politico-technological arms race. They make some law, we make technology that subverts it. Due to technology, they must continuously increase their own tyranny in order to enjoy the same level of control they had before. The end result is either an uncontrollable population or a totalitarian state. We're heading towards the latter. I was hoping the government's limits would be discovered along the way, some set of basic principles it'd refrain from violating in its quest for control, thereby reaching the fabled "the ideal amount of crime is non-zero" state. Turns out governments know no limits.

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Parents should relax and ... " "everyone should just adopt my values and then all these political problems would just disappear. voila!"

> all these political problems The problems I mentioned aren't real , that's the point. It hasn't just never been proven that Counter Strike et al cause amok runs, it's been disproven [1]. Consuming porn doesn't make people rapists (although I do concede: the ethical aspects particularly around studio-produced porn do require discussions), and consuming LGBT content doesn't make children LGBT. People are, to the exte…

"The problems I mentioned aren't real, that's the point."

Can you possibly think that determining what is and is not a valid problem isn't a subjective evaluation?

Even looking at your examples, which are not chosen well for your argument. In each of these you're just shifting the burden of proof to reflect what your values. "No one has proven counter strike causes violent behavior, consuming porn makes people rapists or people can become gay." All wide-open empirical questions. Maybe none of these gets resolved in the near future; they aren't even well-formed questions. Meanwhile parents, governments, policy-makers need to make decisions. If you are very concerned about your kid being violent, you will avoid videogames even as a precautionary measure.

"The fact that some organizations (particularly religious) "

Ah you found an even easier way to resolve the issue, just ignore religious values.

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#226
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Daily Mail was close to tabloid status (or a bit above). Aren’t they banned from being a citation on Wikipedia?

They are a trash paper so skepticism is warranted but care should be taken not to dismiss facts just because of who reports them. Thankfully, we don't have to depend on the word of the Daily Mail for evidence that the UK doesn't value the ideal of free speech and are far too comfortable punishing and silencing online speech. It's a problem, and it makes their efforts to tie people's online activity to an individual w…

Best reply of siblings, by far.

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#227
If we as humans take full responsibility for the world we inhabit. It's really clear that we live inside of systems that we both control and feel that we don't. Exploitation of children is (as strange as it sounds) a design issue. We've designed systems that encourage and rationalize the exploitation of children as a feature of fear.

The encouraging part is that we are in control and it's easier to navigate with a system than to resist it, so the question becomes.

- How do we modify the incentives that are already in place to not result in the exploitation of children?

Because people generally make decisions for their best interest, we're in a dangerous situation where the incentives are for child exploitation.

An example would be: I need to feed my family I need to work to live I need to appease my boss to continue to work The boss has goals to meet We need to perform these actions to meet the goals There isn't time or space to consider the full consequences of this action When the impact to children is not considered by a change to a system, they inevitably reap the consequences of living in a system that never considered their welfare.

The children that grew up feeling out of control, and in a system not designed for them then seek to control the very system that formed them - not knowing that they're replicating the same harm that got them there.

This is a design cycle as I see it, if we don't look at it and understand it - then we will continue feeling powerless - while holding the reigns of our future in our hands.

I believe so much in the power of humanity - so I share this not with the idea that I have the answers, but that I am part of the collective that does.

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#228
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast numbers of people for speech offences. Vast? No, they really don't.

[flagged]

It's only scary to Americans (maybe reaching hard because of Trump?) and those who live off Twitter and Daily Mail headlines. For the rest us it's marginally better than when the crazies where screwing us over with Brexit.

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#229

I guess we will see a jump in the number of foreign eSIMs sold to UK minors.

Time to open a business in Roblox selling eSIMs delivered in-game through QR codes? (Assuming Roblox hasn’t been banned before we can get the MVNOs on board.)

Re: UK House of Lords attempting to ban use of VPNs by anyone under 16

#230

"Attempt", being the key word here. :-/

We’ve seen how this goes. If it doesn’t pass, they’ll try again and again until some combination of political chicanery lets it slip through. They only have to win once, we have to win every single time.
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