Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera • Hacker News Board

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#221

Post by RHSeeger » Wed, Dec 03, 2025, 11:38 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #213

RHSeeger wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you speak to this part? > Honestly, I don't understand what argument is that you're not sending a message TO the bank, and they need to be able to read it in order to act on it, and they need to decrypt it to read it. The bank is the target of the message, they are one of the "ends" in E2EE. That's the part that I'm confused on.

That's an implementation detail of the bank. You might just as well say that E2EE messaging is impossible because you are sending a message "to" Signal, and they need to read it in order to act on it.

I feel like we're talking past each other.

I'm telling the bank "I want you to give $5 of my money to Bob". I'm not asking them to pass a message to Bob. The entire message is the instructions for the bank to give the $5 to Bob. The bank MUST be able to read that message in order to follow the directions. There's nothing to "leave encrypted" to treat the bank as a non-end of the E2EE.

You could presumably hide who Bob is by making it some kind of anonymous account thing... but that _still_ wouldn't leave any message encrypted. Because all of the information needs to have been decrypted for the bank to act on it.

For the Signal analogy to apply, there would need to be some message going to Bob. And there isn't... other than "We're giving you this $5 for OP", all of which is information in the original message that the bank needs to act on it.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#222

Post by Artoooooor » Thu, Dec 04, 2025, 12:39 AM UTC

Words "toilet" and "camera" should never appear in one product's description

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#223

Post by venturecruelty » Thu, Dec 04, 2025, 1:50 AM UTC

IAmBroom wrote: post #204

potato3732842 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pointed at the toilet bowl contents though it may catch some scrot in the edge of frame depending upon ambient temperatures. https://images.ctfassets.net/veq5rt4lbvkn/2bpiwr3gYoRPnXqB8e...

I just want to note: I upvoted you for the phrase "catch some scrot". "[D]epending upon ambient tempertures and user age " is probably more accurate.

Someone's going to get a gnarly push notification on their phone about grandpa at 2:00 AM.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#224

Post by zarzavat » Thu, Dec 04, 2025, 5:46 AM UTC

monerozcash wrote: post #216

zarzavat wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but National Security Letters make that pointless. You can't encrypt away a legal obligation. The point of e2ee is that a provider can say to the feds "this is all the information we have", and removing the e2ee would be noticed by security researchers. If the provider controls one of the ends then the feds can instruct them to tap that end and nobody is any the wiser. The best you can do is either to run the inf…

> Yes but National Security Letters make that pointless It seems ridiculous to use the term "national security letter" as opposed to "subpoena" in this context, there is no relevant distinction between the two when it comes to this subject. A pointless distraction. > You can't encrypt away a legal obligation. Of course you can't. But a subpoena (or a NSL, which is a subpoena) can only mandate you to provide informati…

I believe we are in agreement. If you are a communication platform that implements e2ee then you provide the guarantee to users, backed by security researchers, that the government can't read their communications by getting a subpoena from the communication platform.

The problem with AI platforms is that they are also a party to the communication, therefore they can indeed be forced to reveal chats, and therefore it's not e2ee because defining e2ee that way would render the term without distinction.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#225

Post by evanjrowley » Thu, Dec 04, 2025, 7:13 AM UTC

d1sxeyes wrote: post #211

spwa4 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End-to-end encryption doesn't mean anything where it is semi-validly used. It's used on phones, where you as a user (or company) don't control what code executes. For example, WhatsApp was end-to-end encrypted. Well, it doesn't actually provide security because with either physical access to the phone or if you have if you can use the app store to "upgrade" the app, you can upload code to the phone. You can upload an…

Yes, the government can also just implant tiny cameras in your eyeballs and just record everything you see anyway, so you’re not safe.

FWIW that's the initial plot for the Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex (2002) animated series.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#226

Post by monerozcash » Thu, Dec 04, 2025, 10:44 AM UTC

zarzavat wrote: post #224

monerozcash wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes but National Security Letters make that pointless It seems ridiculous to use the term "national security letter" as opposed to "subpoena" in this context, there is no relevant distinction between the two when it comes to this subject. A pointless distraction. > You can't encrypt away a legal obligation. Of course you can't. But a subpoena (or a NSL, which is a subpoena) can only mandate you to provide informati…

I believe we are in agreement. If you are a communication platform that implements e2ee then you provide the guarantee to users, backed by security researchers, that the government can't read their communications by getting a subpoena from the communication platform. The problem with AI platforms is that they are also a party to the communication, therefore they can indeed be forced to reveal chats, and therefore it'…

It's possible to produce a technical solution to this using tools like SGX.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#227

Post by swiftcoder » Sun, Dec 07, 2025, 8:49 AM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #210

swiftcoder wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think this matches anyones' mental model of what "end-to-end encrypted" for a conversation between me and what is ostensibly my own computer should look like. If you promise end-to-end encryption, and later it turns out your employees have been reading my chat transcripts...

If you have an E2EE chat with McDonalds, you shouldn't be surprised that McDonalds employees can read the messages you've sent that account. When messaging accounts controlled by businesses then the business can see those messages.

This is why I specified "mental model". Interacting with ChatGPT is not marketed as "sending messages to OpenAI the company". It is implied to be "sending messages to my personal AI assistant".