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Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

reuters.com

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Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#221

Post by Marsymars »

rootusrootus wrote: post #50
Marsymars wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the Lightning is mostly that it's a money-loser for Ford.

I've never seen a good number on this. Is it money losing per vehicle, or because of the amortized R&D included in the cost? The problem from my perspective is that it hasn't turned out as popular as they hoped -- truck buyers are a hard to convert bunch of people. Which is too bad, because my Lightning is my favorite of all the pickups I've owned over the years. It's a fantastic truck.

> Is it money losing per vehicle, or because of the amortized R&D included in the cost?

Certainly the latter, but I don't think it was ever going to be money-making, even in the Ford's best-case sales/production scenario it was really a gen1 platform (along with the Mach-E) to get their foot in the door with EV production, supply chains, sales, etc.

Then they got hit with various external events (low gas prices, higher electricity prices, EV credit cancellations, higher tariffs, etc.) that made their numbers even worse.

FWIW I'm also a fan of the Lightning - it's obviously not a drop-in replacement for 100% of things an F150 can do, and the pricing is tough, but just on its own merits it's a very nice truck. (I was recently car shopping, but had no need/inclination for a full-size truck, so ended up with a hybrid Maverick instead - very impressed with that too so far.)

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#222

Post by bastawhiz »

lostlogin wrote: post #109
grosswait wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not though. Just borrowing the name as they said.

That’s just it though. If the name doesn’t make it a Mustang, what does?

If I take a Ford Focus and call it a Mustang, is it? Arguably, no. Mustangs have a distinctive style, feel, feature set, intended audience. It's a matter of what people expect when they buy the thing.

The Mach-E kind of snuck in. I believe they intended to make more electric Mustang-branded cars, but things changed internally and priorities shifted. Lots of women really like Mustangs, and the Mach-E is positioned to appeal to many of the same people: it makes sense to use it as a kind of Trojan horse to ease folks into EVs with a brand they already like. But if you took a Mach-E and hid the name and asked folks "is this a Mustang?" The answer you'd get is "No".

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#223

Post by rkomorn »

jack_tripper wrote: post #219
rkomorn wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you considering subcompact crossover SUVs SUVs because the letters are literally in the name?

Not sure what you mean, I'm considering the statistics

The original comment was that the cars are Clio/Golf sized instead of SUV-sized.

You countered that SUVs and crossovers are outselling other categories, but subcompact crossover SUVs like the Captur, Yaris Cross, 2008/3008, etc are, in fact, Clio/Golf sized.

So whatever statistics you're considering, if you're going just based on "type contains SUV" without considering size, then you're missing the actual important part.

If you're going based on your link's content, it also says:

"Compact SUVs (C-SUVs) were the most popular type within the category, accounting for 42% of total SUV registrations last year, followed by smaller models (B-SUVs), with 36% market share."

So that means that about a third (64% of the 54% number you're quoting) of vehicles sold are SUVs larger than the Clio/Golf size they mentioned.

And since this whole sub thread started based on a comment about vehicle sizes, it's not "moving the goalposts" to talk about the actual size of the vehicles being sold.

Of course, one could argue "it's SUV sized if it has SUV in the class name (regardless of compact or subcompact)" but I think that would be willfully sidestepping the point.

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#224

Post by sofixa »

jack_tripper wrote: post #217
sofixa wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is "here"? Most cars on this list, and the ones I see while living in one big European city, and regularly visiting lots of others, are not SUVs. There are plenty of them, but even then it's on the smaller side (e.g. a Renault Captur, not a Escalade 8 wheeled 65ton) https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2025/11/europe-october-2025-...

>Where is "here"? Austria, central Europe. >the ones I see while living in one big European city Except that statistics don't give a damn about what you see in your city. In 2024 54% of vehicles sold in EU are SUVs.[1] And indications point to 2025 being 57% in some months. Which matches what I see where I live with a lot of Tesla Model Ys and BYD SUVs. Plus, Volvo only makes SUVs, which should tell you why SUVs are…

> A Renault Captur is still classified as a SUV, which is what I was talking about

It can be classified as a fighter jet, it's still a moderately sized vehicle and it's barely bigger than the Renault Clio it's based on. It's a compact SUV. Almost none of the negative points of Americans style massive SUVs or trucks apply to it - it has good visibility, doesn't have a flat front to mow down pedestrians, doesn't weigh double what it should, doesn't consume absurd amounts of fuel.

So my original points, that the average cars in Europe are drastically smaller than their American counterparts, even when they're SUVs, still stands and is even confirmed by your source.

And the fact that Volvo decided to only do SUVs, while having a sister brand for EVs (Polestar), is pretty irrelevant.

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#225

Post by rootusrootus »

sofixa wrote: post #113
rootusrootus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's what marketing has convinced Americans it's what they need Is there some kind of objective analysis which supports this claim? It seems more likely that people vote with their wallet, and bigger wins out a lot of the time. It's hardly an American manufacturer thing, either, Japanese cars have reliably gotten bigger year after year as well.

> Is there some kind of objective analysis which supports this claim It's a bit hard to have objective research on marketing and public perceptions. But how else do you explain all the marketing in that regard, and the fact that Americans, on average, even urbanites, keep buying massive pickup trucks, the majority of which are never used for anything more than a commuter vehicle for 1, maybe 2 occupants? Even in rich…

Well, as someone who owns an F-150 Lightning, I have to tell you that my choice had zero to do with marketing. Does Ford even market this thing? Heck, even the regular F-150 doesn't seem like it gets a special amount of marketing, these days everyone already knows all about them and doesn't need to be told whether they want one or not.

What you may be missing is that the vast, vast majority of Americans do not live in an urban core where owning a full size pickup is a chore. If you have the space, then a modern half-ton crew cab pickup basically checks all the boxes. The interior is enormous, comfy for passengers, it can haul nasty dirty things in the bed, tow, etc. And my Lightning has a huge frunk for even more capacity. As a family vehicle it's pretty dang useful. We own a sedan, too (a Model 3) and it's fine, but far less space and not nearly as comfy.

> Japanese vehicles in the US or everywhere?

Might be just the US, but that just confirms the market is driven by consumers and not by American auto manufacturers pushing some sort of narrative. A modern Honda Civic, for example, did not become the size of an old Accord because of safety features. It's because people keep preferring something incrementally larger. There are still much smaller cars in the US that are quite safe, they just aren't as popular.

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#226

Post by rootusrootus »

Marsymars wrote: post #221
rootusrootus wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen a good number on this. Is it money losing per vehicle, or because of the amortized R&D included in the cost? The problem from my perspective is that it hasn't turned out as popular as they hoped -- truck buyers are a hard to convert bunch of people. Which is too bad, because my Lightning is my favorite of all the pickups I've owned over the years. It's a fantastic truck.

> Is it money losing per vehicle, or because of the amortized R&D included in the cost? Certainly the latter, but I don't think it was ever going to be money-making, even in the Ford's best-case sales/production scenario it was really a gen1 platform (along with the Mach-E) to get their foot in the door with EV production, supply chains, sales, etc. Then they got hit with various external events (low gas prices, high…

> the pricing is tough

Ford certainly didn't do themselves any favors, that's for sure. Even today, the street price is not commonly known -- I talk to people all the time who think it's a 70K+ truck even though it's been continuously available for 15-20K less for a year or more. I'm guilty of that myself, I was going to settle for a used hybrid powerboost F-150 for about 55K before someone casually mentioned that the Lightning could be had for just over 50K brand new (and not the base model!). Dodged a bullet on that one I think, the powerboost has an awful reputation for reliability.

> ended up with a hybrid Maverick instead

That's a very solid choice. When my kids move on with their own lives in a few years, I'll be very open to a smaller truck. Maybe not Maverick small, but it's still very appealing (and doubly so if Ford makes an electric version). I am hoping Ford has plans for an electric Ranger.

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#227

Post by seanmcdirmid »

forinti wrote: post #202
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both limit adoption. Public charging infrastructure would solve the problem of nit being able to charge at home.

You have to consider that South America is the most dangerous continent. You can't just leave your car charging unattended in a public space. It has to be done at home or somewhere closed (which would make it expensive) or you would have to watch over your car (which would take a lot of your time).

How do parking lots even work in South America then?

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#228

Post by energy123 »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #196
energy123 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely, you need to set up plants overseas to dodge the input tariffs instead of onshoring manufacturing for export. That causes reductions in manufacturing investment compared to the alternative.

Compared to the alternative where the domestic plants don’t exist at all because they are competing domestically with low cost foreign products?

In that hypothetical they can't compete because of labour protectionism and immigration restrictions, not because there's some intrinsic reason it's too expensive to manufacture in one country versus another.

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#229

Post by fragmede »

harrall wrote: post #187
fragmede wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What company does the digital camera sensor inside your phone come from? Why couldn't have that been Kodak?

Kodak had digital cameras but it would 10-15 years before digital sensors would be good enough. But the film market collapsed in like 5-7 years.

and some simple math says that 10-15 minus 5-7 still leaves Kodak in the lurch. But it's now 2025, and Kodak the corporation is still around, so I don't know that my supposition: Kodak would be doing better today if they'd gone all in on digital camera sensor technology, is disproven by that fact.

Re: Electric vehicle sales are booming in South America – without Tesla

#230

Post by forinti »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #227
forinti wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to consider that South America is the most dangerous continent. You can't just leave your car charging unattended in a public space. It has to be done at home or somewhere closed (which would make it expensive) or you would have to watch over your car (which would take a lot of your time).

How do parking lots even work in South America then?

At supermarkets and malls they usually have guards.

Lots where people park overnight are gated.

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