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NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

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Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#221
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, a big issue is that they are really hard to implement correctly. This means that backdoors and weaknesses might not exist in the theoretical algorithm, but still be common in real-world implementations. On the other hand, Curve25519 is designed from the ground up to be hard to implement incorrectly : there are very few footguns, gotchas, and edge cases. This means that real-world implementations a…

I tried to defend a similar argument in a private forum today and basically got my ass handed to me. In practice, not only would modern P-curve implementations not be "significantly weaker" than Curve25519 (we've had good complete addition formulas for them for a long time, along with widespread hardware support), but Curve25519 causes as many (probably more) problems than it solves --- cofactor problems being more c…

I agree that Curve25519 and other "safer" algorithms are far from immune to side channel attacks in their implementation. For example, [1] is a single trace EM side channel key recovery attack against Curve25519 implemented in MbedTLS on an ARM Cortex-M4. This implementation had the benefit of a constant-time Montgomery ladder algorithm that NIST P curve implementations have traditionally not had a similar approach for, but nonetheless failed due to a conditional swap instruction that leaked secret state via EM.

The question is generally, could a standard in 2025 build upon decades of research and implementation failures to specify side channel resistant algorithms to address conditional jumps, processor optimisations for math functions, etc which might leak secret state via timing, power or EM signals. See for example section VI of [1] which proposed a new side channel countermeasure that ended up being implemented in MbedTLS to mitigate the conditional swap instruction leak. Could such countermeasures be added to the standard in the first instance, rather than left to implementers to figure out based on their review of IACR papers?

One could argue that standards are simply following interests of standards proposers and organisations who might not care about cryptography implementations on smart cards, TPMs, etc, or side channel attacks between different containers on the same host. Instead, perhaps standards proposers and organisations only care about side channel resistance across remote networks with high noise floors for timing signals, where attacks such as [2] (300ns timing signal) are not considered feasible. If this is the case, I would argue that the standards should still state their security model more clearly, for example:

* Is the standard assuming the implementation has a noise floor of 300ns for timing signals, 1ms, etc? Are there any particular cryptographic primitives that implementers must use to avoid particular types of side channel attack (particularly timing)?

* Implementation fingerprinting resistance/avoidance: how many choices can an implementation make that may allow a cryptosystem party to be deanonymised by the specific version of a crypto library in use?[3] Does the standard provide any guarantee for fingerprinting resistance/avoidance?

[1] Template Attacks against ECC: practical implementation against Curve25519, https://cea.hal.science/cea-03157323/document

[2] CVE-2024-13176 openssl Timing side-channel in ECDSA signature computation, https://openssl-library.org/news/vulnerabilities/index.html#...

[3] Table 2, pyecsca: Reverse engineering black-box ellipticcurve cryptography via side-channel analysis, https://tches.iacr.org/index.php/TCHES/article/view/11796/11...

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#222
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://medium.com/@hdevalence/when-hell-kept-on-payroll-som...

Thank you! I had no idea.

That article is pure horsecrap: https://eindhoven.cr.yp.to/false-statements-by-henry-de-vale...

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this gets you into trouble, because Bernstein has actually a pretty batshit take on nothing-up-my-sleeve constructions (see the B4D455 paper) --- and that argument also hurts his position on Kyber, which does NUMS stuff!

Link?

https://bada55.cr.yp.to/bada55-20150927.pdf

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Link?

https://bada55.cr.yp.to/bada55-20150927.pdf

There’s also a more approachable set of slides on the topic at https://cr.yp.to/talks/2025.11.14/slides-djb-20251114-safecu...

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#225

For context, djb has been doing and saying these things since he was a college student: While a graduate student at the University of California at Berkeley, Bernstein completed the development of an encryption equation (an "algorithm") he calls "Snuffle." Bernstein wishes to publish a) the algorithm (b) a mathematical paper describing and explaining the algorithm and (c) the "source code" for a computer program that…

djb has earned my massive respect for how consistent he's been in this regard. I love his belligerence towards authoritarian overreach in this regard. Him, Phil Zimmermann, Richard Stallman, and all are owed great respect for their insistence on their principles which have paid massive dividends to all of us through the freedom and software that has been preserved and become possible through them. I appreciate them i…

Once, back in the woolly days of the Internet and before crypto became a household name, Wired magazine published an article about Phil Zimmermans' work .. and included his phone number at the end of the article, for some strange reason.

I was immediately star-struck, and without even thinking about it, called him up - not really expecting an answer.

He answered, and I was suddenly lost for words. What the heck was I calling him for? I told him, sorry, I just wanted to see if that phone number was real, and whether or not he was really so accessible to the general public to discuss crypto things.

He was very cordial, said yes indeed he enjoyed hearing from people who had constructive ideas about his work, and what was I really interested in. I glibly told him, I was just really testing the phone number - how did he feel about being so contactable - and he replied he had no problem with it whatsoever, and thanks for my call. I stupidly tried to explain to him how important it all was, and bumbled my way out of the call .. and I still, decades later, distinctly remember his chuckle as he put the receiver down on the other end ..

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think the above poster is full of bologna? It's less painful for everyone involved, and the readers, to just say that and get that out of the way rather than trying to surgically draw it out over half a dozen comments. I see you do this often enough that I think you must get some pleasure out of making people squirm. We know you're smart already!

I don't make a habit of googling things for people when they could do it just as quickly themselves. There is only one paper proposing the OpenSSL heartbeat feature. So I have not been unclear, nor can there be any confusion about which it is. Perhaps we'll learn someday what tptacek expects to find or not to find in it, but he'll have to spend 30 seconds with Google. As I did. Informing one's self is a pretty low ba…

Your argument that heart bleed was intentional is very weak

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My professors at Brown were walking on QR lattice cryptography well before 1997, although they may not have been publishing much - NTRU was in active development throughout the mid 1990s when I was there. Heating up by 1997 though, for sure.

I guess that would have been Silverman etc? That's true there was NTRU before reductions were shown. Good call.

Yes, I think Silverman and Pipher worked together on NTRU together. I went through and helped develop a tiny bit of the undergrad crypto curriculum there, but I wasn’t what you’d call social with the department, so this may be inaccurate :)

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@dang, can we establish a rule that NSA apologists should not be doxxing HN members for the sin of advocating against the NSA's preferred narratives and worldview? Deliberate personal breaches of privacy against HN members as a response to the contents of their speech like this stifle free discourse to the highest degree possible and should be banned or at least harshly admonished, no?

It's not really "doxing" when the public username they chose to use is their actual name, leading directly to their github profile, and their arguing that you always represent your employer, even if you "cloak" yourself in an alternate name. Saying that it is a "breach of privacy" when the relevant details are being advertised by the person in question is silly.

I don't understand why (ostensibly) regular users of HN denigrate the site with throwaways.

The only thing separating this site from other trash on the internet is good-faith discussion, low trolling and the notion that people here aren't posting low-effort content with impunity, in my opinion.

It's clear in this thread that one or more people are messing with the other user who thought they went overboard linking a user's profiles on other sites - a point that could have been made without the links included.

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And since then we have an NSA employee co-authoring the paper which led to Heartbleed I'm confused as to what "the paper which led to Heartbleed" means. A paper proposing/describing the heartbeat extension? A paper proposing its implementation in OpenSSL? A paper describing the bug/exploit? Something else? And in addition to that, is there any connection between that author and the people who actually wrote the rel…

> I'm confused The original paper which proposed the OpenSSL Heartbeat extension was written by two people, one worked for NSA and one was a student at the time who went on to work for BND, the "German NSA". The paper authors also wrote the extension. I know this because when it happened, I wanted to know who was responsible for making me patch all my servers, so I dug through the OpenSSL patch stream to find the aut…

What's the original paper? The earliest thing I can find is an RFC.

Re: NSA and IETF, part 3: Dodging the issues at hand

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm confused The original paper which proposed the OpenSSL Heartbeat extension was written by two people, one worked for NSA and one was a student at the time who went on to work for BND, the "German NSA". The paper authors also wrote the extension. I know this because when it happened, I wanted to know who was responsible for making me patch all my servers, so I dug through the OpenSSL patch stream to find the aut…

What's the original paper? The earliest thing I can find is an RFC.

I'm pretty sure he meant the RFC. (Insert "The German Three" meme).
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