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.NET 10

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET 10

#221

Post by mbesto »

jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

> I wish .NET was more popular among startups

In my experience .NET/C# dwarfs pretty much any other framework in the SMB and there are WAY more software companies that aren't considered "startups" than those tagged as "startups".

Re: .NET 10

#222

Post by masfoobar »

lou1306 wrote: post #145
masfoobar wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "confusing" aspect with C#, being part of the Microsoft eco-system, is that there are many smaller companies (and startups) that may have concern paying for such tools. To the uneducated, C# is linked to Visual Studio.. the IDE.. and the Community edition if free as long as you are a student, open-source, and individuals. Professional and Enterprise are paid. (Yes - there is Visual Studio Code) Again, I a…

> Need a database - should it be SQL Server? "I am using Java. Need a database - should it be Oracle?" .NET Core 1.0 was released almost a _decade_ ago.

???

Java was originally Sun Microsystems.

However - if Java was Oracle to begin with (and as successful in the mid-90s) then might have done some marketing for the Java+Oracle mix.

Some people (ie Managers) if they decide on using Microsoft products will likely "encourage" the use of C# and .NET. -- That is an example of C# + Sql Server.

Re: .NET 10

#223

Post by dzonga »

jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

I tried so many times to get into the .net ecosystem. I actually like f# have written a few toy things with it. but never could built anything substantial with it - as I would starting my own cement factory.

same as c# - seems asp.net comes with a lot of stuff - but to use that stuff a lot of ceremony is baked in.

with Ruby | Rails i'm one or two commands away from most things I need. I understand the language & the ecosystem.

Re: .NET 10

#224

Post by cheschire »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #207
cheschire wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dallas area is a major tech hub. It’s just an older hub of major enterprisey type companies with major tech divisions there like Texas Instruments, AT&T, Bank of America, defense contractors like Lockheed, etc. Office Space took place there before the dotcom bust. Less enterprisey, but John Carmack and id Software also started there.

I lived and worked in Atlanta from 1996-2020. Those aren’t anymore tech companies than Delta, Home Depot or Coke by modern definitions. In all of the companies you named, software development is a cost center, not a profit center - follow the money. Who gets paid the most as a group at those companies? Those are enterprise companies.

You’re saying the same thing I did yet somehow you’re trying to argue with me about it.

Re: .NET 10

#225

Post by aryonoco »

stiiv wrote: post #173
bonesss wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F# is less popular, but it’s a first class .Net language with full MS support and integration onto .Net (VM and ecosystem). C# has been tracking F# and aiming for language parity for years (ie all your modern C# devs should be learning the same language facilities). F# is multi-paradigm so C# devs can write idiomatic C# with minor forced changes. And as a .Net language you can always decompile it into C# and keep goi…

Last I knew, Rider was pretty much the only IDE available for a large codebase when you weren't on Windows. Much love for Ionide, but it was a serious struggle. Is this any better now?

No still the same.

VS Code with Ionide is okay but has many limitations for example in debugging or lack of support for F# fsi scripts.

If you’re serious about F#, investing in Rider or Visual Studio makes a lot of sense.

Having said that I wrote a Neo4J data extraction tool a few months ago and chose to write it in F#. At one point I observed how funny it was that I was developing in a Microsoft language and yet my dev workstation runs Fedora and my IDE comes from JetBrains and my code is running in kubernetes on a Linux cluster and there is not a sight of a windows machine in this whole pipeline.

I remember the days when the language, linker, compiler, IDE, the GUI components, everything was tied together. If you wanted the next version of VB you had to buy the new version of Visual Studio!

Re: .NET 10

#226

Post by masfoobar »

martinald wrote: post #150
CharlieDigital wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just the amount of money spent on Windows/Microsoft for small companies is rather large, compared to other alternatives that are just as good. This is a complete mis-perception about the modern ecosystem. We have a full team using C# at a series-C, YC startup with every developer on Macs (some on Beelinks and Linux). The team is using a mix of VS Code, Cursor, and Rider. We deploy to Linux container instances…

Totally agree. Ironically dotnet runs better on Linux/Mac systems in my experience. All our devs who use Windows for dotnet dev now use WSL2 as it matches production. We don't use any other 'commercial' Microsoft products like SQL Server or Azure. All postgres/redis/etc and deploy onto docker containers.

> Ironically dotnet runs better on Linux/Mac systems in my experience. All our devs who use Windows for dotnet dev now use WSL2 as it matches production. We don't use any other 'commercial' Microsoft products like SQL Server or Azure. All postgres/redis/etc and deploy onto docker containers.

I am pushing for Linux containers in the workplace... away from Windows, IIS, etc. I totally agree with you 100%. I'm also trying to push us away from SQL Server where possible.

Re: .NET 10

#227

Post by catapart »

Literally just started building a game engine with .NET 9, so naturally there's an update within a week. -_-

Seems like a good update, though! And I'm glad it's early enough that updating the framework probably shouldn't break anything. Really as long as there's no issues with the DearImGUI dependency (would be a surprise!), I'm pretty happy about the update.

Re: .NET 10

#228

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #216
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that question is more "how many different makes of van can your delivery company afford to maintain?" Which is an analogy for "how many different programming languages for the same task of serving a web api can you company afford to support?" The majority of programming languages (c# definitely included!) are "general purpose", i.e. they can be used well enough for almost all tasks. They're not so different a…

Car models get maybe refreshed annually, bigger changes a couple of times a decade, if that. Vehicle fleets are often aging out with these timelines. So if we either stretch the fleet management analogy to 50 years, or software applications only lasted 3-5 years maybe it IS fair to say the both have either a lot (former) or very little (later) inconsistnency?

> Car models get maybe refreshed annually, bigger changes a couple of times a decade, if that.

.NET gets refreshed annually. The last bigger change was nearly a decade ago. So not all that different.

But I don't think that the analogy stretches, really. e.g. where I am all .NET apps are .NET 8 LTS or 9, and will be all be .NET 10 LTS by middle of 2026. You can upgrade an app to a new model year much more easily than a vehicle. The "software application, on a SDK major version" only lasts 1-2 years.

Re: .NET 10

#229

Post by thiago_fm »

dzonga wrote: post #223
jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

I tried so many times to get into the .net ecosystem. I actually like f# have written a few toy things with it. but never could built anything substantial with it - as I would starting my own cement factory. same as c# - seems asp.net comes with a lot of stuff - but to use that stuff a lot of ceremony is baked in. with Ruby | Rails i'm one or two commands away from most things I need. I understand the language & the…

I'm a Ruby dev of almost 2 decades now doing C# and it's extremely fast to get a API with Swagger running from C#, a few mins tops. And this is if you spend just a little bit to learn it!

Of course, if you expect a full FE+BE 'omakase' framework like Rails there isn't anything with the same weight. I began to see this as a plus, you actually don't need it all, and nowadays it's very modern to delegate auth to a service etc. I know it isn't DHH's PoV, but it makes it much easier to maintain, so you focus on writing business logic and do the FE in a widely supported framework like React, or use Microsoft stuff, your choice.

The DTOs/DI and the typical .NET developer stuff isn't bad or hard to learn, most of it comes naturally when you think "What would a statically typed language need?"

It's what allows C# code be very clean and easy to follow, where you know exactly what is available unlike Ruby that a lot of things are implicit and can get very nasty. After so many years debugging and improving Rails apps performance, I got sick of it and C# feels fresh.

Then there's LINQ and a lot of language sugar that makes C# code really beautiful. I've done also some Java, and can easily vouch for C#. It's the Ruby of statically typed langs.

And the speed, don't get me started. It's so fast.

Re: .NET 10

#230

Post by sumnole »

catapart wrote: post #227

Literally just started building a game engine with .NET 9, so naturally there's an update within a week. -_- Seems like a good update, though! And I'm glad it's early enough that updating the framework probably shouldn't break anything. Really as long as there's no issues with the DearImGUI dependency (would be a surprise!), I'm pretty happy about the update.

I wouldn't worry. Updating .NET rarely breaks anything.
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