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Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

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Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#221

Post by dragonwriter »

whalesalad wrote: post #217
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you should just use virtualenv with pip This is the most insulting take in the ongoing ruination of Python. You used to be able to avoid virtualenvs and install scripts and dependencies directly runnable from any shell. Now you get endlessly chastised for trying to use Python as a general purpose utility. Debian was a bastion of sanity with the split between dist_packages and site_packages but that's ruined now too…

it's because so many essential system tools now rely on python, and if you install arbitrary code outside of a venv it can clobber the global namespace and break the core OS' guarantees. I do agree it is annoying, and what they need to do is just provide an automatic "userspace" virtualenv for anything a user installs themselves... but that is a pandoras box tbh. (Do you do it per user? How does the user become aware…

What they needed to do is allow side-by-side installs of different versions of the same distribution package and allow specifying or constraining versions at import time, then you wouldn't have the problem at all.

But that's probably not practical to retrofit given the ecosystem as it is now.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#222

Post by XorNot »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #18

For single-file Python scripts, which 99% of mine seem to be, you can simplify your life immensely by just putting this at the top of the script: #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script # /// script # requires-python = ">=3.11" # dependencies = [ "modules", "here" ] # /// The script now works like a standalone executable, and uv will magically install and use the specified modules.

I use this but I hate it.

I want to be able to ship a bundle which needs zero network access to run, but will run.

It is still frustratingly difficult to make portable Python programs.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#223

Post by globular-toast »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #18

For single-file Python scripts, which 99% of mine seem to be, you can simplify your life immensely by just putting this at the top of the script: #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script # /// script # requires-python = ">=3.11" # dependencies = [ "modules", "here" ] # /// The script now works like a standalone executable, and uv will magically install and use the specified modules.

You can get uv to generate this and add dependencies to it, rather than writing it yourself.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#224

Post by aunderscored »

whalesalad wrote: post #217
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you should just use virtualenv with pip This is the most insulting take in the ongoing ruination of Python. You used to be able to avoid virtualenvs and install scripts and dependencies directly runnable from any shell. Now you get endlessly chastised for trying to use Python as a general purpose utility. Debian was a bastion of sanity with the split between dist_packages and site_packages but that's ruined now too…

it's because so many essential system tools now rely on python, and if you install arbitrary code outside of a venv it can clobber the global namespace and break the core OS' guarantees. I do agree it is annoying, and what they need to do is just provide an automatic "userspace" virtualenv for anything a user installs themselves... but that is a pandoras box tbh. (Do you do it per user? How does the user become aware…

pipx solves this perfectly.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#225

Post by ElectricalUnion »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #208
hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

> you should just use virtualenv with pip This is the most insulting take in the ongoing ruination of Python. You used to be able to avoid virtualenvs and install scripts and dependencies directly runnable from any shell. Now you get endlessly chastised for trying to use Python as a general purpose utility. Debian was a bastion of sanity with the split between dist_packages and site_packages but that's ruined now too…

Unless all python dependencies you ever used were available in your distro (and then at that point, you're no longer using pip, you're using dpkg...), this never worked well. What solves this well is PEP 723 and tooling around it.

With PEP 723 and confortable tooling (like uv), now you get scripts, that are "actually directly runnable", not just "fake directly runnable oops forgot to apt-get install something sorta runnable", and work reliably even when stuff around you is updated.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#226

Post by Ant59 »

chrisweekly wrote: post #214
hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

Webdev since 1998 here. Tabling the python vs JS/etc to comment on npm per se. PNPM is better than npm in every way. Strongest possible recommendation to use it instead of npm; it's faster, more efficient, safer, and more deterministic. See https://pnpm.io/motivation

I've gone all-in on Bun for many of the same reasons. Blazingly fast installs too.

https://bun.sh/

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#227

Post by caconym_ »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

There is nothing I dread more within the general context of software development, broadly, than trying to run other people's Python projects. Nothing. It's shocking that it has been so bad for so long.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#228

Post by globular-toast »

aerhardt wrote: post #26

I'm surprised by how much I prefer prepending "uv" to everything instead of activating environments - which is still naturally an option if that's what floats your boat. I also like how you can manage Python versions very easily with it. Everything feels very "batteries-included" and yet local to the project. I still haven't used it long enough to tell whether it avoids the inevitable bi-yearly "debug a Python enviro…

One of the key tenets of uv is virtualenvs should be disposable. So barring any bugs with uv there should never be any debugging environments. Worst case just delete .venv and continue as normal.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#229

Post by yoavm »

eatonphil wrote: post #74
kyt wrote: post #21

I must be the odd man out but I am not a fan of uv. 1. It tries to do too many things. Please just do one thing and do it well. It's simultaneously trying to replace pip, pyenv, virtualenv, and ruff in one command. 2. You end up needing to use `uv pip` so it's not even a full replacement for pip. 3. It does not play well with Docker. 4. It adds more complexity. You end up needing to understand all of these new enviro…

> 2. You end up needing to use `uv pip` so it's not even a full replacement for pip. Needing pip and virtualenvs was enough to make me realize uv wasn't what I was looking for. If I still need to manage virtualenvs and call pip I'm just going to do so with both of these directly. I had been hoping someone would introduce the non-virtualenv package management solution that every single other language has where there's…

Really sounds like you're using it wrong, no? I completely forgot about virtualenvs, pip and requirements.txt since I start using UV.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#230

Post by j2kun »

This article appears to be NOT about someone who discovered uv after using venv/pip, but rather an article about someone who discovered uv after not using virtual environments at all, and is mostly excited about the cleanliness of virtual environments.
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