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What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

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Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#221

Post by realityfactchex »

lejalv wrote: post #169
ryandrake wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me try to strawman a little: I personally accept this on my phone because I honestly don't consider my phone to be a computer, and I don't really care about "computing" on it. My phone is not really that important to me. It is a toy/appliance that I goof around with. What it's running and how "free" and "open" it is, is about as important to me as how free the firmware in my car is, or the software on my gaming c…

While this is fine for you, I worry about a sociocultural divide. I believe the likelihood of a smartphone being the only form of computing (and access to the internet in particular) grows with diminishing income / cultural means. This is based on anecdotal observation, does anybody here know of relevant survey data?

> relevant survey data

Based on a cursory look, keywords can include "smartphone-only internet users" and "large-screen computer ownership".

The American Community Survey asks questions related to that (income, computing devices). Comparing states, the poorer the residents of a state, the smaller the percent of households with regular computers ("large-screen computer ownership"), per "Computer Ownership and the Digital Divide" (Mihaylova and Whitacre, 2025) [0, 1, 2].

Also, Pew runs surveys on income and device usage ("smartphone-only"). Again, the lower the income, the higher the proportion that is smartphone-only [3, 4].

[0] Chart: https://files.catbox.moe/emdada.png

[1] Paper, "Census Data with Brian Whitacre.pdf": https://files.catbox.moe/1ttgee.pdf

[2] Web: https://www.benton.org/blog/computer-ownership-and-digital-d...

[3] Pew chart: https://files.catbox.moe/fs62tf.png

[4] Pew web: https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/mobile/

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#222

Post by deadbunny »

bayindirh wrote: post #109
symbogra wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the issue that they support secure boot type features?

No, the issue is too much of the Secure Boot chain is currently being controlled by Microsoft. Kernel being GPL has no point currently. Require hardware attestation with Microsoft private keys + systemd-boot + systemd + uutils can create a nice walled garden, allowing "vendors" to build locked-down hardware-OS pairs. More importantly, uutils is MIT, which can attest at every level, without sharing a line of source co…

You don't have to use MS' keys, you can setup secure boot using your own keys reasonably easily.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware...

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#223

Post by jolmg »

ryandrake wrote: post #125
fsf4alltemp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my country, the same verification service is used to access banks, health services (private and public), taxes, and even verify online retail purchases. This verification app on Android requires Play Integrity on first time activation so fresh installs of something like GrapheneOS will not let you use the app. It's still currently possible to use a hardware token alternative to the app. It is only getting less con…

I see all of these "in my country, we need a phone to do X" posts, and while I believe them, I feel like they always leave out key information. I'd also like to know: What actually happens when the customer does not have a phone? Do you just never get healthcare? Do you just never bank? Surely there are (perhaps inconvenient) alternatives that people without phones can use. The national government doesn't just let it…

> The national government doesn't just let its citizens slide into some healthcare-less, unbanked purgatory simply for not having a phone.

Unfortunately, I think that depends on whether the portion of citizens without a phone is significant. People need to care for businesses/government to care.

See also countries where they struggle to use cash. What happens when a customer does not have a bank account?

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#224

Post by codyb »

vetrom wrote: post #211
codyb wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's advocating here... when have kernel extensions _ever been_ a part of the average user's experience?

The early MacOS era as well as pretty much the entire classic Mac OS era was infamous for being a more-or-less do it yourself environment for adding bits the OS didn't have or did sub-optimally for given use cases. The wisdom of such a freewheeling ecosystem in today's era is maybe debatable, but given how user-hostile the mainline OS and software vendors can be, I say there's still plenty of room for that ecosystem…

I guess I do remember adding drivers here and there for scanners and printers back in the day

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#225

Post by bombcar »

Bender wrote: post #84
pjmlp wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations are at least as old as Code of Hammurabi, naturally they have become less drastic throughout the centuries.

The codes exist but I think what they are saying is that in some places codes are not enforced or even checked. I live in somewhat of a "middle ground" where codes do exist and electrical is checked on a brand new build. They will also nag about septic inspections but will never actually get off their butts and do the inspection. Many such places do exist but they are usually places I would never want to reside . I k…

There are places that don't even have the regulations - or if they do, the number of explicit exemptions is so large as to easily drive an entire house through them.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#226

Post by MisterTea »

npodbielski wrote: post #186

Which means that in the future will be less engineers and software developers because they never had a chance to learn. And if somebody will know how all of this works really, they won't be working for peanuts. So in an essence all of those companies are eating their own tails. Which is expected since all of it is driven by the stock exchange executives that are interested only by short term profit. Yes it will be te…

I'm sure there are people in high places believing this is not important because AGI.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#227

Post by bayindirh »

deadbunny wrote: post #222
bayindirh wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the issue is too much of the Secure Boot chain is currently being controlled by Microsoft. Kernel being GPL has no point currently. Require hardware attestation with Microsoft private keys + systemd-boot + systemd + uutils can create a nice walled garden, allowing "vendors" to build locked-down hardware-OS pairs. More importantly, uutils is MIT, which can attest at every level, without sharing a line of source co…

You don't have to use MS' keys, you can setup secure boot using your own keys reasonably easily. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware...

I know. The question is not about what’s possible today.

What prevents Microsoft from updating Windows PC standards and eliminate the possibility of turning off secure boot and allowance of enrolling your own keychain in the secure boot process?

These are long games. Being comfortable today doesn’t guarantee same comfort and allowances tomorrow.

Ironically, we’re discussing this under Android’s increasing restrictions.

The same Android which was championed as the bastion of mobile freedom when it first came out.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#228

Post by ianburrell »

bakies wrote: post #158
coldpie wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passkeys are another brick in this wall. The authors of the spec built in client software identification and attestation, which means authenticating parties can require you to only use certain, closed-source passkey clients. It's not hard to imagine a future where only blessed Passkey clients, such as Microsoft's, Apple's, and Google's implementations, are allowed by most services.

Yeah I hate this, installed a new CPU and none of my passkeys work. The browser asks my phone and they don't trust each other and not a damn clue how to fix it.

Don't store passkeys in hardware. They are more secure that way, but more dangerous if you lose them. Your passkeys were stored on the old CPU and are gone. If you do, you need to store on multiple devices like phone, tablet, and computer, but that is harder to manage.

Better to store passkeys in password manager. Then they become more secure passwords. The big advantage is that they can't be phished, and sites don't use 2FA with them. It also means you can choose password manager that you trust and work better than Apple and Google.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#229

Post by parliament32 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #38
mrbluecoat wrote: post #22

Executive Summary: run Linux

Won't matter. Remote hardware attestation means they will know you're trying to bypass their control. You'll be denied service at every turn. Can't even log into your bank account.

Given my bank hasn't even moved on from optional SMS-based MFA yet, I expect this to start becoming a problem in maybe half a century.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#230

Post by JuniperMesos »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #154
timefirstgrav wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow... The idea of losing general purpose computing is a terrifying thought I've never considered before.

It’s already happening. Many big institutions lean heavily on mobile apps and other gated computing. I live in BC Canada and by far the easiest way to authenticate a login to provincial sources involves using the BC ID App as a second factor, even when logging in via desktop. Many banks now also use their app as a second factor, rather than a generic OTP option that can run on any hardware. There were also issues lik…

> Many banks now also use their app as a second factor, rather than a generic OTP option that can run on any hardware.

A financial institution I have an account with requires MFA to log in, and the only options they support are SMS MFA and their proprietary smartphone app. This is acutely annoying to me, because it means I have to get up and get my phone if I want to log into this site from my PC (or rig up a complicated Android emulator setup).

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