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Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

digitalsociety.coop

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Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#221

Hetzner is really great until you try to scale with them. We started building our service on top of Hetzner and had couple 100s of VMs running and during peak time we had to scale them to over 1000 VMs. And here couple of problems started, you get pretty often IPs which are black listed, so if you try to connect to services hosted by Google, AWS like S3 etc. you can't reach them. Also at one point there were no VMs a…

We scaled to ~1100 bare metal servers with them and it worked perfectly.

Username checks out.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#222

I cannot overstate the performance improvement of deploying onto bare metal. We typically see a doubling of performance, as well as extremely predictable baseline performance. This is down to several things: - Latency - having your own local network, rather than sharing some larger datacenter network fabric, gives around of order of magnitude reduced latency - Caches – right-sizing a deployment for the underlying har…

Ya but then you need to pay for a team to maintain network and continually secure and monitor the server and update/patch. The salaries of those professionals , really only make sense for a certain sized organization.

I still think small-midsized orgs may be better off in cloud for security / operations cost optimization.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is old is new again. My employer is so conservative and slow that they are forerunning this Local Cloud Edge Our Basement thing by just not doing anything.

> What is old is new again. Over the years I tried occasionally to look into cloud, but it never made sense. A lot of complexity and significantly higher cost, for very low performance and a promise of "scalability". You virtually never need scalability so fast that you don't have time to add another server - and at baremetal costs, you're usually about a year ahead of the curve anyways.

The benefit of cloud has always been that it allows the company to trade capex for opex. From an engineering perspective, it trades scalability for complexity, but this is a secondary effect compared to the former tradeoff.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#225
AWS and DigitalOcean*: $559.36, Hetzner: $132.96

Perspective: this difference is one hour of US fintech engineer time a month. If you have to self-build a single thing on Hetzner you get as "built-in" on AWS, are you ahead?

If this is your price range, and you're spending time thinking about how to save that $400/month (three Starbucks a day) instead of drive revenue or deliver client joy, you likely shouldn't be on AWS in the first place.

AWS is for when you need the most battle tested business continuity through automations driving distributed resilience, or if you have external requirements for security built into all infra, identity and access controls built into all infra at all layers, compliance and governance controls across all infra at all layers, interop with others using AWS (private links, direct connects, sure, but also permission-based data sharing instead of data movement, etc.). If your plans have those in your future, you should start on AWS and learn as you grow so you never have a "digital transformation" in your future.

Whether you're building a SaaS for others or a platform for yourself, “Enterprise” means more than just SSO tax and a call us button. There can be real requirements that you are not going to be able to meet reasonably without AWS's foundational building blocks that have this built in at the lego brick level. Combine that with "cost of delay" to your product and "opportunity cost" for your engineering (devs, SREs, users spending time doing undifferentiated heavy lifting) and those lego blocks can quickly turn out less expensive. Any blog comparing pricing not mentioning these things means someone didn't align their infra with their business model and engineering patterns.

Put another way, think of the enterprise column in the longest pricing grid you've ever seen – the AWS blocks have everything on the right-most column built in. If you don't want those, don't pick that column. Google and Azure are in the Team column second from right. Digital Ocean, CloudFlare, the Pro column third from right. Various Heroku-likes in the Getting Started column at the left, and SuperMicro and Hetzner in the Self-Host column, as in, you're buying or leasing the hardware either way, it's just whose smart hands you're using. ALL of these have their place, with the Getting Started and Pro columns serving most folks on HN, Team best for most SMB, and Enterprise best for actual enterprise but also Pro and Team that need to serve enterprise or intend to grow to that.

Note that if you don't yet need an enterprise column on your own pricing grid, K8s on whoever is a great way to Get Started and go Pro yourself while learning things needed for continuous delivery and system resilience engineering. Those same patterns then can be shifted onto on the Team and Enterprise column offerings from the big three (Google, Azure, AWS).

Here's my TL;DR blog post distilling all this:

If YAGNI, don't choose it.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#226
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is old is new again. My employer is so conservative and slow that they are forerunning this Local Cloud Edge Our Basement thing by just not doing anything.

As an infrastructure engineer (amongst other things), hard disagree here. I realize you might be joking, but a bit of context here: a big chunk of the success of Cloud in more traditional organizations is the agility that comes with it: (almost) no need to ask permission to anyone, ownership of your resources, etc. There is no reason that baremetal shouldn't provide the same customer-oriented service, at least for th…

"No need to ask permission" and "You get the same bill every month" kinda work against one another here.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear that. But if you do not pay and you do not check your e-mails, it's basically your fault. Who is using SMS these days even?

Yes, absolutely my fault. But these problems happen. Credit cards expire, people change companies or go on leaves, off boarding processes are not always perfect, spam filters exist. Add to that the declining experience of email with so much marketing and trash landing in the inbox (and sometimes Gmail categorizing important emails as "Updates") That's why grace periods for these situations are important. Who uses SMS…

> Add to that the declining experience of email with so much marketing and trash landing in the inbox (and sometimes Gmail categorizing important emails as "Updates")

This is also something under your control - you don't have to use Gmail as your email provider for important accounts and you can whitelist the domains of those service providers if you don't rely on a subpar email service.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#228

I love how few comments on this and similar posts give much context along with their advice. Are you hosting a church newsletter in your spare time or a resource intensive web app with millions of paying enterprise customers and a dedicated dev ops team in 3 continents? Any advice on price / performance / availability is meaningless unless you explain where you're coming from. The reason we see people overcomplicatin…

Strong agree. I hadn't seen your comment when I wrote this, below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45616366

TL;DR: Think of hosting providers like a pricing grid (DIY, Get Started, Pro, Team, Enterprise) and if YAGNI, don't choose it.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#229
post #125

Hetzner is great for dedicated servers, but for those of us who need smaller-scale secure/confidential VMs I'm afraid that there isn't really any other choice than hyperscalers. Does anyone know if there is a VM vendor that sits somewhere in between a dedicated server host like Hetzner in terms of performance + cost-effectiveness and AWS/GCP in terms of security? Basically TPM/vTPM + AMD SEV/SEV-SNP + UEFI Secure Boo…

Interested to hear more about your use case and threat model, if you are willing to share. I ask because although I've looked into (and done some prototyping) with secure cloud hosting, I/we came to the conclusion that there's no current technology that is "actually secure" and so abandoned the approach. Curious if things have improved now, or if you're operating in some security theater context where it's ok.

The basic principle is to ensure that any machine/workload which joins the network (and processes customer data, in this case extremely sensitive PII) has a cryptographically verified chain of trust from boot to the application-layer to guarantee workload integrity.

NixOS is used for declarative and more importantly deterministic OS state and runtime environment, layered with dm-verity to prevent tampering of the Nix store. The root partition, aside from whatever is explicitly configured in the nix store, is wiped on every reboot. The ephemerality prevents persistence of any potential attacker, and the state of the machine is completely identical to whatever you have configured in your NixOS configuration, which is great for audibility. This OS image + boot loader is signed with organisation-private keys, and deployed to machines preloaded with UEFI keys to guarantee boot integrity and preventing firmware-level attacks (UEFI secure boot).

At this point you need to trust the cloud provider to not tamper with the UEFI keys or otherwise compromise memory confidentiality through a malicious or insecure hypervisor, unless the provider supports memory encryption through something like AMD SEV-SNP. The processor provides an AMD-signed attestation that is provided to the guest OS that states "Yes, this guest is running in a trusted execution environment, and here are the TPM measurements for the boot" and you can use this attestation to determine whether or not the machine should join your network and that it is running the firmware, kernel, and initramfs that you expect AND on hardware that you expect.

I think I'll put together a write-up on this architecture once I launch the service. There is no such thing as perfect security, of course, but I think this security architecture prevents many classes of attacks. Bootkits and firmware-level attacks are exceedingly difficult or even impossible with this model, combine this with an ephemeral root filesystem and any attacker would be effectively unable to gain persistence in the system.

Re: Migrating from AWS to Hetzner

#230

Love it! We are unfortunately moving away from self-hosted bare metal. I disagree with the transition to AWS. But it's been made several global layers above me. It's funny our previous AWS spend was $800 per month and has been for almost 6 years. We've just migrated some of our things to AWS and the spend is around $4,500 per month. I've been told the company doesn't care until our monthly is in excessive of five fig…

There are many other costs besides that AWS bill. Naming two it's hard to put a number on, but get discussed at board room or senior exec level:

- client confidence

- labor pool

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