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Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

blog.torproject.org

221–230 of 241 posts

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#221

Just an FYI for anyone who is interested, I’ve also been doing the same for Waterfox. Mozilla have taken into consideration doing things locally, such as tab organisation and the likes (one would assume pre-GPT era and with regard to features not utilising LLMs this would’ve been branded as ML functionality) but I’m not fully convinced this still won’t open up potential security issues in the future[for users of AI b…

Thanks for maintaining Waterfox. For me it has been working without issues, basically Firefox but with reasonable defaults, and I don’t have to constantly look for and manually disable “features” like these.

[deleted]

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nooooo, you need to use FF no matter how much it pisses you off, since we can't let Google be a monopoly (even though it already is and it's the government's job to crack down monopolies)"

Did you know.. Mozilla get >80% of its revenue from Google, by making Google Search as default search engine on Firefox. While Mozilla pretends to be a non-profit, its CEO makes millions of dollars annually. Mitchell Baker: Stepped down as CEO of Mozilla in February 2024. Her salary for 2023 was reported to be $6.9 million. Laura Chambers: Became interim CEO of Mozilla in February 2024. Mozilla has not disclosed her…

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Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#223
post #143

It makes me a little sad we only ever see FF hit the front page of HN for stuff people are angry about. The FF team building useful features like tab groups that are improving UX. But I guess if it bleeds it leads.

Maybe the Firefox team should stop doing bad things if they don’t want people saying bad things about them.

The most likely outcome of taking that advice is they do nothing and stagnate.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#224
post #18
post #4

Good! I do not want nor need AI in every single aspect of my life. I mean, I've seen AI hygiene products out there. How does that even work? Don't answer that ... I know it's a marketing scheme, akin to the "HD" craze of five to 10 years ago.

Agereed. Sadly, we're on the wrong planet, my friend. AI will be shoved into every available orifice and more. It's a great tool for "them" to gather even more info on you to sell to anyone with a handful of nickels. The last thing any of these masters of the universe will do is leverage AI to make everyone's life better.

I don't think switching planets will help much, either. Mars will get AI before it gets humans.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#225

They removed privacy.resistFingerprinting.spoofOsInUserAgentHeader a while back as well. I find that suspicious.

Tor browser's philosophy is that everyone should be fingerprinted and it's fine since they do everything they can think of to try to make that fingerprint identical to everyone else using Tor browser.

This is kind of crazy since there are new fingerprinting techniques all the time and if they miss even one data point the whole game is lost. The smarter movie would be to make sure that fingerprints are unique/randomized so that even the same person looks like different people but for some reason they're confident they can account for every possible identifying metric 100% of the time.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, Let's talk basics and real stuff.. Why is a company getting millions of dollars (from its biggest competitor) for doing the bare minimum (or is that a quid pro quo deal between them)? "Too little, too late" seems to be the norm at Firefox and Mozilla in past few years. Firefox users have been demanding Tab Grouping for years (and the other major browsers have had Tab Grouping feature for years), but it was only i…

Yes, lets talk real stuff! Firefox invented tab grouping a decade before it existed in Chrome, and sustained an extension ecosystem with full access to browser UI, such that tab grouping extensions long were possible in Firefox that were not possible in Chrome. It's never been gone, and adding a new natively supported iteration is a good thing, not a bad thing. Mozilla maintains 32 million lines of code, roughly the…

> Firefox invented tab grouping a decade before it existed in Chrome, and sustained an extension ecosystem with full access to browser UI, such that tab grouping extensions long were possible in Firefox that were not possible in Chrome. It's never been gone, and adding a new natively supported iteration is a good thing, not a bad thing.

First and foremost, Mozilla didn't invent Tab Grouping, nor did it invent or pioneer Tabs for that matter.

James Newton Gunn (1867–1927) invented Tabs (patented in 1897) as a new way to access the contents of a set of index cards, separating them with other cards distinguished by projections marked with letters of the alphabet, dates, or other information.

In 1982, Wordvision for DOS was perhaps the first commercially available product with a tabbed interface. In 1992 Borland's Quattro Pro popularized tabs for spreadsheets; Microsoft Word in 1993 used them to simplify submenus. In 1994, BookLink Technologies featured tabbed windows in its InternetWorks (most likely the first internet browser to feature tabs). That same year, the text editor UltraEdit also appeared with a modern multi-row tabbed interface. The tabbed interface approach was then followed by the Internet Explorer shell SimulBrowse in 1997, which was later renamed to NetCaptor. Opera was one of the earliest browsers with tabbed browsing and private browsing.

In fact, the company that pioneered Tabs for Internet Browser was BookLink Technologies for its browser InternetWorks in 1994 (BookLink's technology was later licensed by Microsoft to bring Internet capabilities to MS Word).

And no, neither did Mozilla nor Chrome invent or pioneer Extensions either.

Browser extensions predate even tabbed browsing! Ironically, it was Microsoft that introduced extensions with Internet Explorer 5 in 1999.

And three years before Google popularized private browsing with Incognito Mode, Safari already had a feature for temporary suspension of cookies and cache. Even Opera had private browsing long before Firefox and Chrome got the feature.

So Tabs, Extensions and Private/Incognito Browsing -- which people tend to think were pioneered by Firefox and Chrome -- were actually invented/pioneered years earlier by other companies for other browsers/editors. Firefox and Chrome simply adopted these nice ideas and made them popular because of their huge user base.

If we want to argue that Firefox's support for Tab Grouping through some extensions was a pioneering act, then that's incorrect roo. It is like saying Microsoft invented Antivirus because it allowed the first Antivirus software to run on its OSes.

Sure, Tab Groups were allowed to be created via Extensions supported by Firefox and Chrome, but the Tabbed Grouping feature was adopted in these browsers as native feature only years later.

I recall that MyIE2 (an IE shell browser in 2002) (MyIE2 later got sold and renamed as Maxthon), featured tabbed browsing, ad blocking, support for Internet Explorer plugins, skins/themes, forms autofilling, customizable toolbar, whois queries, variable keyword searching from address bar (very useful for intranet sites), translation and a highly customizable user interface.

Tab Groups and Sync Tab Groups are probably the Extensions you remember that gave the Tab Grouping feature as add-ons to Firefox. But these extensions (like thousands of other extensions) were created and maintained just by one person or a handful of volunteers.

As you can see, Mozilla Firefox (even with half a billion dollars as annual revenue (thanks to Google) and thousands of staff & volunteers) has not been giving basic features that even old browsers and one-person/one-small-team driven browser extensions have done so admirably for a long time.

Do you really think the average internet user is bothered more about WebAssembly, WebRTC, DNS over HTTPs, limiting cookies, profile sandboxing? Or would the average user be more interested in tabs, tab grouping, themes, customizations, private browsing and other user friendly features in a browser?

But you are right..

> there's the monopoly issue, which is that if we lost Firefox, every active browser engine would be owned by two trillion dollar platform companies, Google and Apple, who could write the rules of the internet on their own. Which includes, among other things, trying to dismantle ad blockers and lock you into their ecosystems.

That is precisely my point. Why is Google in total control of its third biggest rival in the browser market? How is that beneficial for end users?

Do you know why Chrome and Firefox typically ace any latest web standards tests? It's because Google will think forward on proposed web standards, and choose whichever of those ideas it likes and it will implement them in its own ways as new features in dev builds of Chrome and then release them as stable releases later. So by the time these proposed web standards (WebRTC, etc.) even come up for any solid discussions by W3C and other partners of the industry, it is already a moot point, because Google has already interpreted and implemented it in some particular way which is already in vogue (popular use) across many millions of Chrome (and Chromium forked browsers) users across the world. Invariably then, it is Google's interpretation and implemented approach that then becomes the agreed web standard specification. And sooner, rather than later, Firefox also follows suit with almost the same thing, because it is Google pulling the strings of Mozilla behind the scenes. And usually Apple & Safari are not far behind doing the same, because it is already a lost battle when Google's way of that web standard is what the industry is forced to adopt.

So yeah, the internet is already monopoly, thanks to Google, and its far-reaching, far-thinking clout and sheer tenacity to do whatever it wants.

Case in point? Google and Apple have been hit with antitrust lawsuits in EU and USA, accused of monopoly of their products (especially all store) and advertising services on the internet and Android & iOS ecosystem. Google and Apple have been fined several millions or few billions in several such lawsuits, but that's merely a slap on the revenue wrist of these tech giants.

And that arrogance can have profound impacts, as Google can use its clout for more sinister reasons:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/googles-web-integrit...

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-06-22/google-is...

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#227
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, however it still means that the browser is phoning home to somewhere. To be able to make use of that API key, it has to send some data out. Is that data routed over TOR? Does it even matter given that an API key can be used to deanonymize you?

If you don't put in an API key, does it try to connect?

I don't want to have to ask questions like this when using a browser that is intended to anonymize me

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#228

I hope Orion (from Kagi) gains more traction and follows through w/ open-sourcing everything. Privacy-first, 0-telemetry, performant, capable... just not OSS (yet).

Orion is a WebKit fork which is nice to have but Linux support seems so far off (is there a modern project that builds WebKit on Linux or windows at all?) I have been satisfied with moving to Zen, a Firefox fork that behaves like the late Arc browser

Gnome web is based off of webkit-gtk

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#229
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for OP but I would do it to the end it demonstrates how frustrating these 'small inconveniences' actually are. Don't interrupt my workflow unnecessarily. The same reason I don't want adverts everywhere, or I use sponsor block for youtube. I didn't seek out advertisements so I can filter it out. I am not seeking out AI features so I don't add them to my browser. Mozilla and google and everyone it seems n…

Exactly, in my case I have the hidden disability of schizotypy which makes it harder for me to ignore things. If you are blind or dyslexic or have ADHD or any kind of cognitive problem you just don't need to have your spoons wasted by having dialogs cover content and user interface elements that you need to complete your tasks.

I'd just like to say, I'm somewhat diagnosed for anxiety and some adhd in Europe so it's a bit more loose, I never consider it or even medicate much. But this has made me think about the tiny things that throw me. And just now I found the perfect example. My TV. I removed all netflix, prime Disney etc. But as I'm watching YouTube which I'm prone to do to chill out. I sit on the remote. The remote had a netflix button, TV decides I need to install in, automatically, referral cookies loaded and my TV from my video I'm watching, to sitting on the remote, has netflix in my face asking me for money. Just happened AGAIN.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#230

I hope Orion (from Kagi) gains more traction and follows through w/ open-sourcing everything. Privacy-first, 0-telemetry, performant, capable... just not OSS (yet).

Orion is a WebKit fork which is nice to have but Linux support seems so far off (is there a modern project that builds WebKit on Linux or windows at all?) I have been satisfied with moving to Zen, a Firefox fork that behaves like the late Arc browser

When I linked the nightly Windows WebKit builds last week, λigrunert (who works on it) said:

> The easiest way to run WebKit on Windows is via Playwright.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45366867#45487157

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