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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#221
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we all know those laws are never abused and are absolutely only used to target criminals.

No, there is definitely abuse of lawful interception. But, in a jurisdiction with a functioning rule of law, these abuses can be spotted and remedied. Doing the same for mass surveillance (such as ChatControl) or state-sponsored malware is much harder. I'm advocating against ChatControl and malware, and proposing existing lawful interception frameworks as an alternative. But, apparently it's not my day :)

ChatControl is just lawful interception under a different name, but worse.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick: 1. Censorship in German constitutional law is only defined as the state pre-screening before publication. That's a very narrow area and rarely applies. Most people from an US legal tradition will consider censorship to include other things such as mandating removal of certain content after the fact, but that's different legal branches with different mechanisms (i.e. libel). 2. What Schulz is talking about in…

> Most people from an US legal tradition will consider censorship to include other things such as mandating removal of certain content after the fact Such as removals because of copyright claims?

That's just Depublikation.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#223
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for example: https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2021/kw02-de-p... https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf

The first one is bad indeed, but what's so "authoritarian" about the rest? > https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... Other European countries like Switzerland, also banned full face veils(burqas) in public. Try entering a bank, city hall, school, etc with a balaclava, ski mask or motorcycle helmet see how that goes. > https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf Allowing the surveillanc…

> Taking citizenship away from those who voluntarily join terrorist organizations like ISIS? 100% agree with this, how could you not?

Given the UK's recent use of anti-terrorist legislation to arbitrarily classify a protest organisation as terrorists, this is really dangerous. If the government can classify any organisation as terrorists, and then remove citizenship from any members of that organisation, that is horrifying.

So yes, I very, very, strongly disagree with this measure, for very good reasons. How could anyone with any common sense support it?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the Axis powers from World War II are the most obvious demonstrations of nationalism begetting authoritarianism. Germany, Italy, and Japan were nationalist in the extreme. And Italy from that time is such a clear example that it's basically the canonical example used to teach how fascism emerges. Contemporary examples include the Philippines, Hungary, Poland's Law and Justice Party, and arguably Russia, Turkey a…

But that would only be something nationalism signaled if the converse weren’t also true — eg, totalitarian states like the USSR, CCP, etc. Those also had: - grievance narratives; - a tendency to divide the world into loyal citizens and enemies; and, - use the above to justify authoritarian powers. You haven’t shown that nationalism played a particular part in that cycle; just that it also happened in nationalist stat…

The USSR absolutely used a nationalist view in their propaganda [0]

As did the CCP [1]:

> Ideals and convictions are the spiritual banners for the united struggle of a country, nation and party, wavering ideals and convictions are the most harmful form of wavering.

[0] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nationalities-papers...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology_of_the_Chinese_Commun...

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, similar to the US, they have authoritarian tendencies - strong nationalism and anti-immigration. How are you going to round up the bad people if you don't have surveillance everywhere?

Authoritarian? You're saying this because of immigration; this comes from a position that is basically open borders. It is an interesting double standard. The people that hold this position would not consider non-Western countries that don't want to have open borders or have dramatic demographic shifts in their population and culture to be "authoritarian." This whole notion of "rounding up the bad people" is just inf…

The whole concept of a country as a related group of people from one ethnicity or historical origin is relatively recent.

Feudalism did not have this concept; a country was the land belonging to a king (or equivalent), mediated through a set of nobles. There was no concept of illegal or legal immigration; the population of a country were the people who worked for, or were owned by, the nobles ruling that country. There were land rights granted to peasants who had historically lived in that place, but these could and were often overruled by nobles.

European nobility had no such idea of ethnicity or national grouping; the English monarchy is a German family, and most of European nobility were related to each other much more closely than to the citizens of their country.

Early post-monarchy states didn't have this concept. The English Civil War and the French Revolution didn't create states that had a defined concept of the citizen as a member of any ethnic grouping. Again, there's no mention of immigration in any of the documents from this period. It just wasn't a concept they thought about.

The whole concept that a nation-state is a formalisation of a historical grouping of ethnically related people is a very recent one, only a couple of hundred years old.

So to answer your question: It is very easy to have a sovereign country without a policy that prevents unfettered immigration; you just don't care about your population being ethnically diverse. Your citizens are the people who live in your country, and have undergone whatever ceremony and formality you decide makes them citizens.

This is, after all, how America historically did this; if you arrived in America and pledged allegiance, you became a citizen of America.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#226

The CDU/CSU is doing something good. That didn't happened for a long time? I appreciate it. Ausgerechnet Spahn. Manchmal glaubt man seinen Augen und Ohren nicht. Wir müssen Wachsam bleiben. Mit dem Argument das es böse Menschen gibt, wurde schon viel böses getan. Massenüberwachung zerstört jede Gesellschaft. Deutschland hat mehrfach darunter gelitten. Und die Versuche Massenüberwachung einzuführen wiederholen sich.

The reaction is very weak, though. Chat Control is an act of terrorism and it should have triggered criminal investigation why this has gone this far. Before you downvote: If terrorism is defined as using violence or threats to intimidate a population for political or ideological ends, then “Chat Control” qualifies in substance. Violence doesn’t have to leave blood. Psychological and coercive violence is recognised i…

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#228

The CDU/CSU is doing something good. That didn't happened for a long time? I appreciate it. Ausgerechnet Spahn. Manchmal glaubt man seinen Augen und Ohren nicht. Wir müssen Wachsam bleiben. Mit dem Argument das es böse Menschen gibt, wurde schon viel böses getan. Massenüberwachung zerstört jede Gesellschaft. Deutschland hat mehrfach darunter gelitten. Und die Versuche Massenüberwachung einzuführen wiederholen sich.

ja, aber Wachsamkeit ist Pflicht. Wer Freiheit für Sicherheit aufgibt, verliert am Ende beides - das haben wir mehrfach erlebt.

Germany has neither now. It seems you were sleeping on duty.

But I guess you can’t guard against something you either do not have the capacity to or do not wish to see.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#229

The CDU/CSU is doing something good. That didn't happened for a long time? I appreciate it. Ausgerechnet Spahn. Manchmal glaubt man seinen Augen und Ohren nicht. Wir müssen Wachsam bleiben. Mit dem Argument das es böse Menschen gibt, wurde schon viel böses getan. Massenüberwachung zerstört jede Gesellschaft. Deutschland hat mehrfach darunter gelitten. Und die Versuche Massenüberwachung einzuführen wiederholen sich.

Also, even AfD agrees with them on this.

I don't understand why AfD would be expected to disagree here. What, just on principle, because it's CDU/CSU?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#230

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

> I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking. That's the problem with these proposed laws. We (privacy advocates) have to constantly fight and win over and over again. The nations that want this mass spying only have to win once. We need a way to permanently stop these proposals once defeated the first time so that they cannot just continue to try over and over again un…

No you don't, that's not how laws work, if you want society to look the way you want you need to actively work for it, you can't delegate that process to a law. It's not how participation in a free society works
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