The Lost Chapter • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lost Chapter

#221

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 6:09 PM UTC

grellas wrote: post #220

corporalagumbo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, here you are: People should stop trying to make entrepreneurs feel guilty for not living up to their personal ethical standards. One of the advantages of our free society is that people can choose to work on weighty issues or fluffy diversions. As long as you abide by the law, you should not be criticised for the style of business you decide to pursue. If a lot of people can make money from social networking th…

Here is my shortened version: "What I choose to call 'Founder's Guilt Complex' is a false sense of guilt imposed on founders who are told that the only worthwhile venture is one aimed at shaking up the world - I say, relax and use your talents to build the business you want. Keep it legal and do aspire to more in life than that. But forget about the censors. Like the Puritans of old, they would put you in a straightj…

I think that when you condense your original comment, you lose a lot of it simply due to politeness. A point that you can make softly and persuasively, for instance by allusion to the social value of reading Latin, would necessarily read a bit more cuttingly if sharpened down to its essence.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#222

Post by jamesaguilar » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC

cuergas wrote: post #184

jamesaguilar wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently neither can Facebook, if recent attempts are any indication.

Replicated is the wrong word. Superceded is maybe a bit better. Never say never my friend. These things take time.

I see. You get to baldly assert that SpaceX and Tesla are hard to copy, though few have yet tried, but when I point out that people have tried and failed to beat Facebook at their game, these things take time?

Re: The Lost Chapter

#223

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 6:23 PM UTC

corporalagumbo wrote: post #179

tptacek wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, Corporal A. Gumbo: Write it better. Do it and I'll donate $1000 that I promise I was not going to donate anyways to Partners In Health. There's an idea common to forums that I don't frequent that I recently learned of called an "ideological Turing test". The idea is to take a group of people divided along a controversy, and to get each side to anonymously write a coherent argument that capture's the other side's…

Okay, here you are: People should stop trying to make entrepreneurs feel guilty for not living up to their personal ethical standards. One of the advantages of our free society is that people can choose to work on weighty issues or fluffy diversions. As long as you abide by the law, you should not be criticised for the style of business you decide to pursue. If a lot of people can make money from social networking th…

As you can see, not only did you miss his point, you injected two points that he didn't make. It is also very hard to rationalize how your version is "better" than his; in particular, it does an extremely poor job of making its point. "As long as you abide by the law, you should not be criticized"? Approximately 0% of all HN readers agree with that, including George Grellas, who has written persuasively on HN against things like patent trolls.

PIH is a great charity. A great, great charity. Do you want to try again? I think if you ask around, you'll find at least a few people on HN who will tell you that I am not completely full of shit about this. But you have to actually do the thing I challenged you to do.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#224

Post by swordsmith » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 7:12 PM UTC

ryanmolden wrote: post #134

swordsmith wrote: post #114

I've been reading Robert Greene's 48 Laws of Power recently, and throughout this essay, I can't help but think just how all the "moves" Zuckerburg were accused (and infamous) of were exemplary of a number of these laws. Not trying to pass judgement on Zuckerburg's virtues or lack thereof (it's best to accept the inherent unfairness in life on the road to power), but he is a master of power plays: Law 3: Never put too…

>His amoral approach to power and life is definitely key to his success. Bit of a hasty conclusion. Have you really analyzed the sum-total of his behaviors/moves and feel you can conclusively state that the above 11 "laws" are the cornerstone of his success? I doubt that. Also, the book you reference is really not useful for any human being that intends to be part of a actual society. It is a great primer for a socio…

Thanks for the comment, you're right, my conclusion was definitely hasty and very much lacking reading it the second time. The 11 laws were illustrated through historical examples, showing how observance and transgression of each primarily resulted in the win/loss of power. I found it very interesting that Zuckerburg's rise illustrated many of these laws.

However, I don't think the laws outlined (or at least all of them) only apply to sociopaths. Law 2: Never put too much trust in friends, learn how to use enemies. This is just as defensive as manipulative, we would like to think our friends will always be loyal, but that's simply not true.

Law 3: Conceal your intentions. Law 4: Always say less than necessary. Law 6: Court attention at all cost. Marketing and public relations use these all the time.

Law 7: Get others to do the work, and you take credit. Indeed, this one breaks hearts and how we wish that no one ever does this. You can chose to play the game, or learn how it can happen to better defend against credit-stealing. If only Tesla was aware...

Law 9: Win through actions rather than arguments. I actually don't see anything sociopathic about this law at all.

Law 11: Learn to keep people dependent on you. Gaining early traction is pretty important for a startup's success.

Law 12: Use selective honesty and generosity to disarm your victim. This is mostly used in adversarial situations, more like a law of war rather than law of life. But again, "crush your enemy totally" is preached in Sun Tzu's Art of War, but the book is still a classic.

Law 13: When asking for help, appeal to people's self-interest, never to their mercy or gratitude. This is one of the tenet in Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people", simply explains human nature.

Like every piece of knowledge, the laws outlined in the book really depend on your own interpretation and how you apply them. It's similar to learning about security so you can protect yourself against exploits and make robust products.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#225

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 7:46 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #196

cuergas wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's assume the term whale is the same one that is used in casinos. Do you believe that gambling is not an addiction? I will defer to your knowledge on the history of online gaming. I'm not a gamer. However I'm not sure you are doing much to advance the idea that Zynga is not making its money from capitalizing on addictive behavior that rises to the level of being unhealthy. Is that what you are saying? That seems t…

You don't have to "assume", just do a search. It is still common knowledge and hasn't wafted into apocrypha so even asking people would be effective. As I said earlier: source. I can also come up with argumentative gambits easily, but this is a subject that I actually focus on, so I'd like to see the source which gives you your confidence. AFAIK your statements can only be supported by the most edge case and liberal…

[deleted]

Re: The Lost Chapter

#226

Post by cuergas » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 7:53 PM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #222

cuergas wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replicated is the wrong word. Superceded is maybe a bit better. Never say never my friend. These things take time.

I see. You get to baldly assert that SpaceX and Tesla are hard to copy, though few have yet tried, but when I point out that people have tried and failed to beat Facebook at their game, these things take time?

Yes, fads have a certain lifetime. There is a long list of fad websites that shows this.

I think the comparisons to SpaceX and Tesla are strange in terms of what those companies are _producing_ vis-a-vis a social networking website, but that's just me. If you see them as comparable base on what's being produced, carry on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#227

Post by zingahgud » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 8:05 PM UTC

law wrote: post #210

zingahgud wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to study others' work and take ideas from it. Everyone does that. It's another thing to actively engage others, talk to them as if you are friends or enter into agreements to work together, and then take ideas from their work. It's the betrayal of people's trust that's gotten him the reputation for being a con and a thief.

In one of the most telling IMs of their entire correspondence (see page 62 of The Complete Timeline), Zuckerberg stated: "i kind of view you as a friend." This came up when Zuckerberg was annoyed that Greenspan made a security hole public. Greenspan handled the situation with immense professionalism, while Zuckerberg simply could not accept responsibility. Mark's friends are only entitled to the appellation when it's…

Glad to see someone else caught that. But by the same token we have to consider that Greenspan may have hand-picked these IM conversations. It does not appear he's giving us a data dump. More like another one of his White Papers where he is venting.

None of this should be even remotely interesting until you consider hundreds of millions of people have sent their personal information to the manipulative kid in the IM's. Crazy.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#228

Post by cuergas » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 8:45 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #196

cuergas wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's assume the term whale is the same one that is used in casinos. Do you believe that gambling is not an addiction? I will defer to your knowledge on the history of online gaming. I'm not a gamer. However I'm not sure you are doing much to advance the idea that Zynga is not making its money from capitalizing on addictive behavior that rises to the level of being unhealthy. Is that what you are saying? That seems t…

You don't have to "assume", just do a search. It is still common knowledge and hasn't wafted into apocrypha so even asking people would be effective. As I said earlier: source. I can also come up with argumentative gambits easily, but this is a subject that I actually focus on, so I'd like to see the source which gives you your confidence. AFAIK your statements can only be supported by the most edge case and liberal…

I was not trying to bait you into a trap by mentioning gambling. I only wish to point out that the choice to take a term from the gambling industry (one that profits from an addiction?) might be interesting. It might be suggestive. Or it might be pure coincidence. But it's an interesting choice.

You have mentioned "the data" a few times. May we have a source?

The stock price is an indication of Zynga's popularity with Wall Street. It has no bearing necessarily on what corporalagumbo is saying. And I never suggested it did. I mentioned it because it's one thing a casual observer (e.g. me) might follow, along with their disclosures to the SEC.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#229

Post by autophil » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 9:16 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #147

freshhawk wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a label already, "ethical". Argue all you want over the ethics of facebook, or if entrepreneurs have any duty to act ethically, not unethically, not illegally or just not get caught. You don't need a new label though. You sure did write a lot complaining about people using their free speech to criticize businesses they feel are either harmful or a waste of resources because this is a "free country". I was un…

Only in places like Hacker News is there a consensus opinion that Facebook is "a new addictive and time wasting form of entertainment who's contribution society is null or negative". Facebook has increased the number of interactions I have with my extended family by roughly a factor of infinity --- and I'm one of those nerds who's run a mailing list for his family since the mid '90s. A more concise way to say what 'g…

Only in places like Hacker News is there a consensus opinion that Facebook is "a new addictive and time wasting form of entertainment who's contribution society is null or negative"

You either know that statement is untrue but lie anyway, or you haven't been outside and seen a tree in real life for over a year. Many people of all walks of life think Facebook is an "addictive and time wasting form of entertainment who's contribution society is negative."

If you honestly believe otherwise, you need to push away from the computer desk and interact with normal human beings in the flesh STAT.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#230

Post by cuergas » Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 9:18 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #200

cuergas wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or... maybe he just needed some traffic to his website. It seems everyone who had anything remotely to do with Facebook's origins has tried to cash in. This bothers wantrapreneurs because it highlights just how much luck plays a role in a story like Facebook's. They want to believe that one founder or a few co-founders succeed based on some factor(s) under their control (hardwork, skill, etc.) Greenspan is just anoth…

> The web is a lottery. This is quite an overstatement. You don't simply move to Palo Alto and then have a 1/65,412 chance of starting the next Google. Instead you have to have a great vision, great execution, and great luck. Now Zuckerberg may not have Jobsian vision and execution (or maybe he does, only time will tell), but you can't argue that he executed the hell outta Facebook and he definitely has a vision even…

I agree.

/The web is a lottery./d

(except I think it's quite possible for someone to do what's been done with Facebook without also being morally bankrupt)

But is the rest of the comment an overstatement?

Also, you forgot to mention great marketing. In the IM's I believe both of them at one point agree that great visionary ideas, no matter how well they are executed, (alas) do not market themselves.