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Don't avoid workplace politics

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Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#221

Post by ozim »

bluGill wrote: post #148
johnfn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that a lot of the times conversations around this topic end up with some anecdote like "well, playing politics doesn't actually work because I work at a dysfunctional company where decisions are made by morons". If you have a C-suite that makes decisions based on golf games, this advice is not for you. You have a different set of problems. You should absolutely address those problems. But that doesn't mean tha…

If the C-suite makes decisions "based on golf games" then you need to learn how to play golf. You don't have to be good, but don't be so bad that you slow up the game. It is okay to be 1-2 over par every hole, but you need to nearly always find your ball and not hit too far into the rough. Take some lessons if needed. (there are swings that don't have as much power but are a lot easier to be accurate - perfect for yo…

That’s advice like „wake up earlier, read more books to be just like Bill Gates”.

Playing golf alone will not get you in the circle.

Even if you never played golf getting invited to play golf by someone from the circle gets you play the golf.

If you are not the type or not the material you won’t be invited.

I am senior devsecops and save company from crashing once a year - people like me. But business guys get to play golf I am just a worker bee for them.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#223

Post by thenoblesunfish »

energy123 wrote: post #203
jaymzcampbell wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always used "we" when describing and presenting work done as part of a team, even if solo. There's a certain skill in knowing when to promote yourself, and how you do so. These days I tend to be positive in a group sense, and take direct specific ownership of failings. I may be lucky but I think this has led to a lot of respect from coworkers and c-suite that I've engaged with. I've never once felt like people d…

I used to do that, but decided it was deceptive and harmful. You are not describing reality by saying "we" if you did everything. You are creating a social manipulation. It is better to just accurately describe what happened and allow the correct information to flow through the organization, leading to better decision making. For example, you will have the tools to deal with people who maliciously steal your credit w…

If you wrote code that is to be maintained by someone else, which I think has to be true 99% of the time, it is "we". You are still operating as a team even if you did the initial work.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#224

Post by pjmlp »

bartread wrote: post #54
languagehacker wrote: post #41

When Jeff Hodges gave a presentation of his "Notes on Distributed Systems for Youngbloods"[1] at Lookout Mobile Security back in like 2014 or 2015, he did this really interesting aside at the end that changed my perception of my job, and it was basically this. You don't get to avoid "politics" in software, because building is collaborative, and all collaboration is political. You'll only hurt yourself by avoiding lev…

I used to work for a software company that literally had "no politics" as part of its DNA. It was in the company handbook, it was in our values, people would say it when they talked about what it was like to work at the company. Hell, whilst I can't recall any specific instances, I guarantee that I said it and probably many times[0]. But, of course, it was never true. It might have felt true - certainly superficially…

Thanks for sharing, and a good example why for me all those values trainings are worthless, they are lies that get spread across meetings, placed on adversting material, told to junior employees, and hardly anyone follows them in practice, other than doing that yearly training to check a checklist.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#225

Post by try_the_bass »

pjmlp wrote: post #224
bartread wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work for a software company that literally had "no politics" as part of its DNA. It was in the company handbook, it was in our values, people would say it when they talked about what it was like to work at the company. Hell, whilst I can't recall any specific instances, I guarantee that I said it and probably many times[0]. But, of course, it was never true. It might have felt true - certainly superficially…

Thanks for sharing, and a good example why for me all those values trainings are worthless, they are lies that get spread across meetings, placed on adversting material, told to junior employees, and hardly anyone follows them in practice, other than doing that yearly training to check a checklist.

This is a wild take. I think the point of the parent comment was that those "values" have to be honest to be worth anything, not that they shouldn't exist at all.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#226

Post by try_the_bass »

xwolfi wrote: post #214
bartread wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks: that's interesting to know. However, I don't know that it erodes the value of the quote which, taken in isolation, rings true. Even, of all things, a Batman movie[0], and Battlestar Galactica[1] (!) have managed to drop some remarkably profound truths on occasion which has made me relatively unfussy about where one can find truth. At the same time I do like to give due credit so I'll be sure to reference the…

[flagged]

This is a wildly antagonistic take.

It's apparent that the meaning of the quote is true to the parent commenter, regardless of whether or not the attribution is accurate.

The attribution being inaccurate does not rob the quote of it's meaning.

> I could have said the same thing.

But you didn't, and would never have, until you saw the quote for yourself. To claim otherwise is to lie, which you seem pretty passionately opposed to doing. Should I demand an apology from you, now?

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#227

Post by alastairr »

I think this article misses the point. I don't think many engineers are averse to collaborating, advocating for their work and using soft skills. Politics also entails lots of complex human relationships - favoritism, rivalries, jealousy, egomania etc. these play out in different ways in different orga depending on how people and teams are incentivised and arranged. But the net result for the engineer trying to navigate this is can be a lot of wasted energy and frustration. Not always of course, and some orgs really don't have as much of a problem. I suspect it's more common in larger orgs with a traditional corporate culture.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#228

Post by try_the_bass »

ozim wrote: post #221
bluGill wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the C-suite makes decisions "based on golf games" then you need to learn how to play golf. You don't have to be good, but don't be so bad that you slow up the game. It is okay to be 1-2 over par every hole, but you need to nearly always find your ball and not hit too far into the rough. Take some lessons if needed. (there are swings that don't have as much power but are a lot easier to be accurate - perfect for yo…

That’s advice like „wake up earlier, read more books to be just like Bill Gates”. Playing golf alone will not get you in the circle. Even if you never played golf getting invited to play golf by someone from the circle gets you play the golf. If you are not the type or not the material you won’t be invited. I am senior devsecops and save company from crashing once a year - people like me. But business guys get to pla…

I think they're saying that learning to play golf is necessary to succeed in such an environment. I don't think they're claiming that learning to play golf is sufficient to succeed.

You're arguing against a point they weren't making, I think

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#229

Post by solatic »

alphazard wrote: post #35

This is not a great take. Politics shows up as a failure to construct an aligned organization. There will always be some politics, but it should not be the most significant thing going on at a company. In a well designed org, it tends towards zero. In a positive sum environment, with incentives aligned with the shareholders, everyone is trying to make the business more profitable, and the "more" that everyone wants c…

> Politics shows up as a failure to construct an aligned organization.

More to the point, it reflects the failure of higher-level management to construct proper policies, processes, team interfaces, and incentive structures for teams, so that the team leads will be set up to give their engineers all the ingredients for happiness at work: autonomy, mastery, and purpose.

Constructing proper policies, processes, team interfaces, and incentive structures is really hard and much harder to well than most people give credit for. It is virtually always bespoke, building on individual personalities and the tools available. Balancing policies and processes with agility requires significant self-discipline on the part of upper-management to not just run roughshod over their policies and processes.

The question is whether you're optimistic or pessimistic about your upper-management. If you're optimistic about them, then you have Lawful Good upper-management that is interested in building out these governing structures that are needed for building collaborative culture. But if you accept that the vast majority of upper-management is human and flawed (like the rest of us), and there are very few Lawful Good upper-managers around, then you accept politics as a necessary evil, at least in that particular organization.

Re: Don't avoid workplace politics

#230

Post by wolvesechoes »

Reading some comments here on the one hand makes me feel safe, because seems like a lot of tech people do not understand what power is and why it matters, so someone that does can feel little bit more secure. One the other hand makes me pessimistic, because it confirms what I thought for a long time - nothing will happen to improve those important, society-wide topics (FOSS, privacy, personal computing), because... tech people do not understand what power is and why it matters.
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