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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#221

Post by heavyset_go »

maverwa wrote: post #62
jeffbee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can’t hibernate (aka suspend to disk) you will never be able to get that power consumption low. This is cope. An Apple Silicon Macbook does not need to suspend to block devices to save energy (they only do this when the battery is empty). ChromeOS doesn't offer hibernate at all. The only reason that a Framework can't have good battery life in an operating state is that nobody is paying attention to the detai…

Thanks, I did not knew that. My understanding was that keeping the memory alive for suspend-to-idle was the main issue here. But that also might be something a vertically integrated Apple Silicon can win vs. that x86 madness there every day. And to be sure, I do not claim that there is nothing to gain in s2idle. I bet theres still a lot of headroom to safe energy. Its just that it would be easy to safe a lot of power…

Keeping memory alive is how sleep worked for over a decade and is incredibly power efficient.

The issue is that Modern Standby goes ones step further and keeps the CPU and peripherals in low power states instead of just the memory. This will use more power than S3 sleep by default, and each SoC will need deep integration with the kernel for that to ever be power efficient. That means it will require heavy investment from AMD and Intel to enable efficient Modern Standby in Linux, along with heavy vendor investment to ensure each model they sell implements Modern Standby efficiently.

It isn't a matter of Framework dropping the ball, it's matter of hardware platforms being shitty and platform owners not investing as much resources into Linux as they do Windows.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#222

Post by isametry »

whatarethembits wrote: post #43

Battery life is the only thing stopping me from getting out of the Apple ecosystem. As soon as a viable Linux laptop with "enough" battery life becomes available, I'll make the switch. At that point there's nothing on Apple side that couldn't be done better in Linux (with a bit of work, but that's okay). I travel a lot, and often on standby for work during that time. I need to be confident that when I pull the laptop…

When you say "Apple's dominance", are you referring to a potential dominance?

Because in terms of actual dominance, Apple is far from that in laptops. Lenovo, HP and Dell each sell more laptops than Apple, and those three alone make up 60% of the market.

https://www.industryresearch.biz/market-reports/mobile-compu...

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#223

Post by macintux »

fidotron wrote: post #203

This isn't just a question of direct power management features or use of custom silicon, but there has been curious noise for years out of Apple over a major cause: memory management. In modern systems memory becomes a major source of power consumption, so reducing how much if it you need to keep active results in big gains, on top of all the other benefits of doing this. This is partly used as the reasoning to expla…

I believe that's also why Apple has been conservative with the amount of RAM in their phones.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#224

Post by zhivota »

WillAdams wrote: post #156
coldpie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man just give me a way to switch between only the two most recent windows using a keyboard shortcut (without requiring some janky 3rd party program). Windows-style alt-tab. It's not a big ask and would make the macOS experience go from "barely usable" to "perfectly fine."

Does Command tab not do this? It brings up a list of applications in most recently to least recently used order, so two apps switched to/from will constantly switch places.

Not if the windows are both from the same program. Then it's a different keybind, CMD-~ which doesn't have the same priority order style as CMD-Tab. I get caught up on this constantly, to the point where I decided to stop using one Chrome window under my work profile, and one under my personal profile, just so I can have my personal browser under a different program so CMD-Tab works better.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#225

Post by heavyset_go »

hspak wrote: post #110
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #31

As suggested in the blog post, the battery life issue is complex. You do need a CPU/SoC that’s efficient, and while Intel and AMD can do this it’s traditionally been a struggle for them. Next, the OS needs to be capable of taking full advantage of the chip’s efficiency. Windows could be decent here in, but Microsoft doesn’t believe in an operating system that’s ever truly idle (and neither do the third parties living…

My Thinkpad X1 Carbon (gen 5) running linux can suspend for weeks without dying. There was definitely a window where battery life under suspending wasn't a huge problem in Linux, not sure what happened. I also have a Framework 13 (11th gen intel) which has terrible suspend battery life (also loses 2-3%/hour like the newer AMD version)– I was hoping that the AMD chips would fare better, but it seems not.

Are you using Modern Standby or S3 sleep?

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#226

Post by 999900000999 »

red369 wrote: post #176
Zak wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you're popping in and out expansion cards all the time eventually the ports are going to fail If you're plugging and unplugging USB-C cables all the time, eventually the ports are going to fail, but we generally consider plugging things into USB-C acceptable. The Framework expansion modules are just USB-C ports, but they're not subject to much twisting or bending when using the modules so they should last longer…

Even if the internal USB-C ports which the expansion cards plug into fail, which to me also seems like a long time away, the mainboard is designed to be replaceable so I think you'd be in a better position than with another laptop with a failed power plug. There are also clips that hold the expansion cards in place. My HDMI one started coming out when I unplug the cable even from really early on, even without pressin…

Your last paragraph is exactly why I'm avoiding the brand.

It's a premium product with subpar service.

You have Framework the ideal. Right to repair , replaceable parts, ownership rights.

Vs

Framework the company, weird QC issues, parts out of stock, iffy supply. Prices so high you might as well just buy a better laptop whenever you'd swap the main board out.

I think I'm just going with a Thinkpad for my next computer. I also prefer the all black look.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#227

Post by simonask »

apozem wrote: post #78
pclmulqdq wrote: post #34

The Arm architecture isn't why Apple Silicon is so good at this. Apple's silicon engineers have been very good at designing a system of power states that is extremely efficient, and have tight coupling with the OS. Linux on a framework laptop gives you none of this co-design.

Exactly - Apple hardware is designed for its software, and vice versa. They get battery gains across the stack. I remember when the M1 Macs first came out, an Apple engineer revealed they'd optimized the hardware so one specific low-level operation macOS does all the time was 5x faster than on Intel [0]. [0]: https://daringfireball.net/2020/11/the_m1_macs

It’s not even a particularly obscure low-level operation: atomic add. Every computer in the world performs that exact instruction a huge number of times running normal, non-Apple software.

The key insight is the kind of “vertical integration” providing the kind of feedback loop to spot the opportunity.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#228

Post by WorldPeas »

eigenspace wrote: post #178
whatarethembits wrote: post #43

Battery life is the only thing stopping me from getting out of the Apple ecosystem. As soon as a viable Linux laptop with "enough" battery life becomes available, I'll make the switch. At that point there's nothing on Apple side that couldn't be done better in Linux (with a bit of work, but that's okay). I travel a lot, and often on standby for work during that time. I need to be confident that when I pull the laptop…

Instead of a hot-swappable battery, why not just carry a large battery-bank that can charge your laptop over USB-C? That way you don't even need to reboot. Browsing around on Amazon, I see there's actually quite a few battery banks that with over 60W of output, and ~100Wh of capacity for under 100€

I assume for the same reason some people like integrated WWAN modems, it's annoying to have a device dangling off the side

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#229

Post by WorldPeas »

cardanome wrote: post #59
jsheard wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desktop Macs do have fans so they're not completely silent, but if you were under the impression there aren't any then that reflects well on how good their tuning is. AFAIK the MacBook Air is the only passively cooled Mac.

I know that they have fans but I really can't hear them. Maaaybe when gaming but I would to have to really concentrate on that. And I am super sensitive to noise. It is so sad that apparently no one else bothers to tune their fans properly. It is such a killer feature for me.

for real. the only brand that comes close are the chromeboxes, or passive industrial computers, though the speed there isn't flawless, or close to it.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#230

Post by orbisvicis »

fpoling wrote: post #136
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

I really do not understand why hibernate under secure boot is not implemented on Linux and this continues for years. It is as if the features are implemented by completely different people. But this is not obviously the case since systemd supports both and actively improving both. Note for me hibernation is a security measure and not about saving battery. I am traveling sometimes with the laptop and risk of theft is…

I have looked into this. It is possible, and documented on the Arch wiki. My main concern is constantly writing a large file to a small SSD.
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