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Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

sdstate.edu

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Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#221

Post by CalRobert »

privatelypublic wrote: post #122
positron26 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't imagine this survives napkin scrutiny. A ten mile drive isn't using nearly as much hydrocarbon mass as 10k plastic bags. While most of the plastic hopefully winds up in a landfill, most of the gasoline is water and carbon dioxide by the end. It's tires versus bags. While tires shed, the mass lost in 10min is definitely quite a bit lower than 10k bags or the fraction that escapes the waste pipeline.

30mpg, 10 miles, means two pounds of gasoline, 910grams, knock off or add 100g for ethanol per your preference, a google says about 5grams per bag, so nearly 200 bags. Nowhere close to 10k, but nontrivial. And, this gets reduced and sometimes outright negated if you reuse the bag. Doesn't mean we shouldn't evaluate if plastic shopping bags are the beat choice though. I don't think replacing them with store bought dog…

Don’t forget that a lot of carbon went in to making the road, the parking (deforestation or other land destruction for those should be considered too), the car itself, emissions from tyre wear, brake dust, some plastic for the single use medical devices necessitated by treatment of people struck by drivers, etc etc.

Though what is often forgotten is the insane amounts of plastic used in farming. Occlusion fabric for weeds, polytunnel skins, silage wrap, etc

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#222

Post by DemocracyFTW2 »

quotemstr wrote: post #10
foota wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... what's the reason? :)

We don't have a good mechanism for waterproofing cellulose without various complicated industrial processes. Finding a way to do that would be interesting research. But anything involving grapeviles is just ecomasturbation. Actually, no, it's worse, because it robs attention and funding from real problems. Plastic pollution isn't predominately plastic bags or (plastic straws for that matter) that seem important becau…

It's interesting to me that you think the point of greatest effectiveness is exactly where I'd say realistically all hope is lost, the oceans being so vast of a surface and volume. This is end-of-pipe thinking where I believe we should really start at one of the many points earlier in the process: industrial consumption of materials and industrial waste management are such points, and as you say protection of waterways from pollution. Given how lousy mankind has proven to be when it comes to collecting and effectively re-using plastic waste while avoiding concomitant pollution of water and air and material down-cycling, the real mistake lies in the sheer enormous tonnage-per-year and its growth of plastic. This volume of production should have never happened in the first place. But of course it has so there's a place for ocean cleanup efforts. But to state that "the best investment [...] would be automatic cleanup mechanisms" while denigrating research efforts to produce better plastic-ersatz to me sounds like futuristic techno-boondoggle-babble, not unlike that crazy 'hyperloop' thing. Automatic ocean cleanup robots! Yaay! LA to NY in under 30 minutes! Yaay! Colonies on Mars! Yaa---wait wot?? People can't even cleanup after themselves or avoid throwing their trash into the next river, but no problem, we'll clean that up in no time AUTOMATICALLY?? C'mon give me a break.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#223

Post by timeon »

polalavik wrote: post #93
odie5533 wrote: post #81

It's a miraculous thing corporations have done convincing us that we're the ones polluting the environment.

I grapple with this all the time. my wife is very eco-conscious and will scrub out a deeply moldy glass jar just to recycle it (whether the recycling system works is a separate issue here). On one hand there is some truth to the fact that if we all just work together to do the right thing the world is a much better place to live in. Sometimes i don't want to do this (scrub gross shit out) because i'm lazy, other time…

> I'd argue that even thinking about the idea of recycling and eco-conscious behavior is something only the already wealthy (with respect to the rest of the world) can do.

On the other hand, growing poor behind Iron Curtain, thinking about not recycling glass jars was crazy.

The thing is wealthy societies just buy things. We were not only washing those jars but re-filling as well with what we have produced.

And I think same goes when one is 'eco-conscious'. Recycle sure, but buy less.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#224

Post by mcv »

jajko wrote: post #211
GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brown paper, from recycled fibers are often contaminated with mineral oil residue (e.g. from ink on paper) and other unhealthy chemicals, sadly. There was a report in Germany, years ago, of a range of organic products that failed during testing. They discovered the packaging (recycled paper) was the issue, not the crops and the supply chain before packaging. So, a _really_ biodegradable cellulose bag is desirable. Ev…

Road to hell is paved with good intentions... I wonder how many here even notice the most important comment here from you and just keep repeating how plastic bags are worse. Yes they are terrible, but we shouldn't just blindly replace them with anything and call it a day but do the (continuous) investigation for best solution, poisons are these days everywhere.

You don't have to make the bags our of recycled paper. You can make them out of new, unbleached paper. Still much better than plastic.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#225

Post by AlecSchueler »

mcv wrote: post #209
AlecSchueler wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, I still don't understand why brown paper bags aren't more standard for everything Because plastic is cheaper. As I understand it it's often got a negative cost to it, the companies are paid to take it and use it.

Negative cost? Why? It still needs to be produced and transported, right? I don't understand the business case behind this.

The way it was explained to me isv that there are so many plastic feedstocks produced by fuel production that it's often most efficient to pay someone just to take it away.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#226

Post by darkwater »

alexchamberlain wrote: post #148

The UK banned single use plastic bags at major supermarkets. We all moaned about it for a few minutes, forgot our reusable bags a couple of times and then got on with it. Even the small plastic bags you put fruit or pastries in are now gone in a few super markets - initially, they replaced them with transparent paper-based windowed bags, but then I think people realised you really don't need to see inside the bag, an…

We bring tupperwares when buying groceries for the meat, ham, cheese, fish etc and even if the cynic might say it's just a "feel good" action, well, I still put a lot of plastics in our recycle bin but we halved it since we started doing that (and some other trick). Yes, it definitely feels good.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#227

Post by johnofthesea »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #15

Vitis riparia (wild grapevine endemic to the whole eastern side of North America, grows like a weed all over extremely disease resistant and cold hardy) and hybrids with it also produce gum arabic from their spring pruning wounds: https://agresearchmag.ars.usda.gov/2015/dec/grape/ Combined with the high sugars in the fruit and this cellulose things, overall an extremely useful plant.

It is also used as grafted rootstock for Vitis vinifera in majority of vineyards (at least in Europe). BEcause of Phylloxera [0]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera#Fighting_the_%22phy...

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#228

Post by varjag »

gspr wrote: post #205
alexchamberlain wrote: post #148

The UK banned single use plastic bags at major supermarkets. We all moaned about it for a few minutes, forgot our reusable bags a couple of times and then got on with it. Even the small plastic bags you put fruit or pastries in are now gone in a few super markets - initially, they replaced them with transparent paper-based windowed bags, but then I think people realised you really don't need to see inside the bag, an…

> The UK banned single use plastic bags at major supermarkets. We all moaned about it for a few minutes, forgot our reusable bags a couple of times and then got on with it. I hope you're right. Here in Norway, the sensible people did what you describe. A large minority has, on the other hand, turned the lack of plastic bags (and straws, which I'm sure they barely even used once in a blue moon before) into a battlefie…

Funnily you can still buy packs of plastic straws, just that they are sold as "resuable" with a cleaning brush (which noone likely ever uses). They are simply not the default option now and that's enough to make some people rage.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#229

Post by efreak »

cyberax wrote: post #123
nielsbot wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quit using bags for produce--I just put the produce in my basket or cart and then straight into the checkout bag on my way out of the store. The exception is small loose produce like snap peas.

Ugh. That's a REALLY bad idea for anything that you don't thoroughly cook.

As someone who works in a market, eating anything without cooking or washing it first is a bad idea. Most of it is fine, but people are disgusting and there's no way of knowing how many people have touched your apple, if someone's kid managed to lick it without you noticing, or someone managed to push everything off the shelf onto the nonslip mat before they got stopped. Bagged produce can be even worse, given the amount of condensation inside the bag after it warms up on the loading dock and then sits in the cooler. The mister above the fresh greens and such doesn't do much and they regularly get touched and knocked out. The potatoes are probably the best, as the dirt on them is obvious.

If you live in an area with entitled people and spineless corporate rules that don't allow stores to confront people over pets, that's instantly worse than everything else combined. Pets like to lie on the floor, someone's dog has peed on the floor, 5 different random people have petted hugged or picked up that dog and 3 others since they left the house. One of those people is probably a cashier who then handles every item you've bought. And then someone inhaled pet hair and sneezed.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#230

Post by philipallstar »

jraph wrote: post #189
mcv wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting thing is, the non-organic cucumbers at my supermarket don't come in plastic, but the organic ones do. I never know which ones to get.

Yeah, this is terrible. Obviously the people who want to buy organic and the people who want to avoid plastic the most are probably almost the same group. They know this. It feels like "Fuck you environmental-aware buyers" to me. Of course wrapping everything non-organic is a no go as well, it would be terrible for the environment. And I'm afraid stopping the production of non-organic stuff ain't happening anytime so…

> Obviously the people who want to buy organic and the people who want to avoid plastic the most are probably almost the same group. They know this. It feels like "Fuck you environmental-aware buyers" to me.

They're different types of environmental. One is "I don't like pesticides and I have money" and the other is "I don't like eternal plastic waste".

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