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How can England possibly be running out of water?

theguardian.com

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Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#221

Post by 8fingerlouie »

sandbags wrote: post #34

As the article mentions, privatised water companies have built no new reservoir capacity and relied on drawing from rivers and other sources. What the article doesn’t mention is that pre-privatisation a new reservoir was built every year up to about 1960 and then every few years until privatisation in 1992. So we are about 30 years behind in adding capacity to the system. This combined with the inadequate levels of i…

It's fine.

Water companies will build new resevoir capacity, but since the extra money they already bill your for, for maintaining the infrastructure, has been paid out to shareholders, it will of course require an additional fee on your bill.

At least that has been my experience with everything privatized in the past couple of decades. The private investors scoop up every bit of value, and when it's time to pay the bill, it's the customers that must pay (again).

Fortunately we have regulations in place, but that doesn't help when all value has been siphoned from the company and all there's left is debt.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#222

Post by dukeyukey »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #195
dukeyukey wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say the same argument about food, but the system of privately owned farms moving food via privately owned logistics companies to privately owned grocery shops works very well. Yes, it's the responsibility of the state that it's citizens can acquire their needs, but that doesn't mean it has to be government owned.

Giving how much subsidies farmers get, and they still whine all the fucking time, I would gladly nationalize them all. Corn ethanal? Gone. Crazy EU stuff? Gone.

Collectivised agriculture has gone badly enough often enough that I'm wouldn't risk trying it.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#223

Post by bluecheese452 »

krona wrote: post #145
autoexec wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to things like utilities every penny of profit comes at the expense of the public. Either prices are raised so that a small number of people can stuff their pockets with extra cash above what it costs to deliver the service and maintain the system or they get that extra money by failing to deliver the service or they do it by failing to maintain the system itself. I think the neglect and failure to inve…

> I think the neglect and failure to invest in infrastructure is the worst Cumulative capital investment by water companies in England and Wales since privatisation: £250bn. The infrastructure they inherited was never designed for the things it's being asked to do today, and it has a life expectancy. It would literally cost trillions to upgrade the entire sewerage system. This isn't apologia, it's just reality. The r…

These systems were built at a time when the country was much poorer. It can afford to replace it.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#224

Post by 1718627440 »

Theodores wrote: post #204
1718627440 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We self-censored ourselves regarding global warming Care to elaborate what you were doing?

I looked after the IRIX boxes. I made small talk with meteorologists and presenters whilst fixing their machines. When the adverts that go with the weather are for the likes of Land Rover or British Airways, you know the deal.

So you were rounding down temperatures, or colouring maps deceivingly or what?

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#225

Post by alt227 »

walthamstow wrote: post #188
BouffantJoe wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25m is too high. London is 9m, South East England is 9.5 million

I included the East of England region which includes home counties like Beds, Herts and Essex. Any measure of "around London" must include Essex, surely.

IMO 'around London' is Greater London. If you mean the whole South East of England, then say that.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#226

Post by krona »

tomrod wrote: post #218
krona wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they also made the news for dumping particularly large volumes of sewage into rivers Yes and they have been fined for doing so, thus proving my point. These companies have statutory obligations . See the Water Industry Act 1991 and subsequent legislation.

So sewage wasn't dumped, because the law prevented it? Or sewage was dumped, and it was against the law? I'm having a hard time reconciling the theoretical claims made in the thread with the blinding light of what actually happened.

Well sewage has to be dumped (especially in storm conditions), and the water companies have licences to do so. However Thames was found to be in breach of the license, so were fined.

Many people claim these things happen because "shareholders" however it was completely widespread practice to dump sewage before privatisation and the system is literally designed to do so. This doesn't make it OK, however.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#227

Post by alt227 »

psd1 wrote: post #216
hnhg wrote: post #37

Short answer is that the UK gave private companies to extract as much wealth as possible with minimal re-investment in infrastructure. The nation has since seen water rationing and raw sewage being pumped into rivers and beaches, but at least some shareholders have benefited, right?

Well tbf, there is a regulator and there are price controls. They've been given license to extract wealth, but not as much as possible. I do share your bitterness. Free-market fundamentalists have flogged assets for years, and the cost to the citizens is some future government's problem.

A regulator so weak that they have not been able to enforce pretty much anything, and are about to be systematically decontructed and replaced

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ofwat-to-be-abolished-in-...

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#228

Post by sandbags »

davej wrote: post #158
sandbags wrote: post #34

As the article mentions, privatised water companies have built no new reservoir capacity and relied on drawing from rivers and other sources. What the article doesn’t mention is that pre-privatisation a new reservoir was built every year up to about 1960 and then every few years until privatisation in 1992. So we are about 30 years behind in adding capacity to the system. This combined with the inadequate levels of i…

Here in Ireland, our water is a public service and we have similar supply issues to the UK (and a similar rainy climate). I'm not discounting your analysis and I'm sure there are lots of other variables but it's always good to compare other outcomes when discussing counterfactuals.

It's a fair point that nationalised water industries can also be poorly run. But I'm not sure what the argument is that means the amount of money that privatised UK water companies have paid in dividends vs. invested in maintaining and expanding infrastructure isn't a significant part of the UK's problems.

However, as a further point. If national priorities change then a nationalised water industry can respond (relatively) quickly. But what can be done with a bunch of potentially foreign owned profit-seeking companies?

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#229

Post by andruby »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #195
dukeyukey wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say the same argument about food, but the system of privately owned farms moving food via privately owned logistics companies to privately owned grocery shops works very well. Yes, it's the responsibility of the state that it's citizens can acquire their needs, but that doesn't mean it has to be government owned.

Giving how much subsidies farmers get, and they still whine all the fucking time, I would gladly nationalize them all. Corn ethanal? Gone. Crazy EU stuff? Gone.

Just trying to learn more. What "Crazy EU stuff" are being farmed at the moment?

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#230

Post by zipy124 »

fredley wrote: post #161
KingOfCoders wrote: post #26

As a German, what amazes me, it seems like many people in England are on a water flatrate, as far as I understand it. No one (?) in Germany is.

Most water companies in the UK will not allow you to start a new flat rate tarriff though (and will definitely be applying pressure to those on a flat rate to get a meter). So if you move house chances are you will get a meter installed straight away if there isn't one already.

I've never stayed in a place in london with a water meter, and I've lived in 5 places over 8 years. In addition we've tried to get one fitted multiple times, as it was becoming mandatory. None of the places I've lived in were able to have one fitted, as in large buildings fitting a meter for each flat is simply not possible, especially in old council flats.
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