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Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#221

Post by dansmith1919 »

adolph wrote: post #215
Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

Its real and I find it technologically fascinating as they were using the frame and wheel as motor. In January 2016 – almost six years after initial allegations of a pro cyclist doping mechanically – the first confirmed use of "mechanical doping" in the sport was discovered at the 2016 UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships when one of the bikes of Belgian cyclist Femke Van den Driessche was found to have a secret motor…

"Mechanical doping" what a nice way to say they're cheating

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#222

Post by jakewins »

nluken wrote: post #219
jakewins wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hybrid car trivially improves total energy input needed, since it replaces braking by generating heat by braking by storing energy later to be reused. The same should he true here, right? The added energy needed to carry the weight of the motor would be easily overcome by the gains from regenerative braking?

These guys are not using their brakes nearly enough to make up for the amount of power they would use on the climbs, even on the descents.

Are you saying the physics of a bicycle are somehow different than a car going up and down hills? Or are you saying actually hybrid cars use more gasoline driving in hilly terrain as well, and their benefits only accrue in stop-go city traffic?

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#223

Post by [deleted] »

jakewins wrote: post #222
nluken wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These guys are not using their brakes nearly enough to make up for the amount of power they would use on the climbs, even on the descents.

Are you saying the physics of a bicycle are somehow different than a car going up and down hills? Or are you saying actually hybrid cars use more gasoline driving in hilly terrain as well, and their benefits only accrue in stop-go city traffic?

[deleted]

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#224

Post by nluken »

jakewins wrote: post #222
nluken wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These guys are not using their brakes nearly enough to make up for the amount of power they would use on the climbs, even on the descents.

Are you saying the physics of a bicycle are somehow different than a car going up and down hills? Or are you saying actually hybrid cars use more gasoline driving in hilly terrain as well, and their benefits only accrue in stop-go city traffic?

Physics and practical concerns are way, way different. You want to go as fast as possible down the descents in a bike race. You don't want to lose any kinetic energy and fall behind your opponents, so the only time you'd be using it is when you actually want to slow down. In a car, you might be braking/slowing down going downhill anyway, so that energy is better captured than used that moment.

There's also the matter of mass: lot more momentum/energy to be gained from a 1500kg car versus a 70kg bike + rider. That said, less energy needed for the motor so don't know how the math works out there.

Edit: all of this is moot anyway because of the point zettabomb made as well.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#225

Post by brrrrrm »

david-gpu wrote: post #205
brrrrrm wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> endurance sport which is a natural target for doping This makes a lot of sense to me. A very singular goal of "maximum output" without much need for fine motor skills and strategizing. I'd guess sprinting/marathons might have similar issues?

There is actually a lot of strategy in road cycling. Remember for one thing that there are teams -- ask yourself why is that.

I wouldn't deny that (and probably should have caveated this in my OP), but compared to a basketball or football team, the benefit of smart play doesn't seem as significant compared to doping up and pressing hard.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#227

Post by mb7733 »

Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

While I don't believe they're being used to cheat in professional cycling, a motor would _definitely_ provide a massive advantage in a cycling race of any kind.

A motor easily provides enough power to overcome its weight, and they wouldn't need assistance for the entire race, just an edge at key moments.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#228

Post by stockresearcher »

ubermonkey wrote: post #184
le-mark wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a shop that sold LeMond bikes back in the 90s. Iirc they were generally a chromolly lugged frame. At the time a lot of the high end bikes were the same. Are these not common nowadays?

100% no. I've been on the bench for about a year, but I spent the last 15 years as a pretty intense recreational cyclist. I was in the tier that you might describe as "the craziest you get without having a racing license." There were very few steel bikes on those rides -- say, less than 10-15%. Carbon is by far the most common material, followed by Ti for the more well-heeled folks. Most of the steel is "modern", but…

Sure, a modern drivetrain and brakes would be a necessity on a “LeMond reboot”.

My new wheels have rim brakes - I would have added disc if I could. And the rear wheel/hub has room for an extra cog on the cassette. But I feel that once I wear everything out, I’m going to have to bite the bullet and get a new bike rather than fight against the lack of new equipment that fits old bikes :(

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#229

Post by mb7733 »

jakewins wrote: post #212
Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

A hybrid car trivially improves total energy input needed, since it replaces braking by generating heat by braking by storing energy later to be reused. The same should he true here, right? The added energy needed to carry the weight of the motor would be easily overcome by the gains from regenerative braking?

Broadly speaking electric bikes don't use regenerative braking. It's not possible with a road bike drive train.

In any case, the weight of the motor is overcome by the motor itself, using the power stored in the battery.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#230

Post by ortusdux »

Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

How much breaking is done during a race? Would a KERS style motor w/ capacitor be beneficial?
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