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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#221

Post by giantg2 »

kgermino wrote: post #130
giantg2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were no reports of the unintentional acceleration in other makes.

What? Unintended acceleration happens _all the time_. It’s usually driver error or a stuck floor mat. The vast majority are drivers who hit the accelerator thinking it’s the brakes then panic when the car speeds up. Toyota had some design issues that seemed to make it more likely (though the software was found to be fine) and got attention due to a viral 911 call and a poor response. They were absolutely not the only…

Fine, let me be more specific - unintended acceleration due to mechanical design issues (sticking pedal, even without floor mats). The point is, Toyota was raised as an example of quality, yet here we have a design issue. This also shouldn't be a surprise since the floor mat issue can be solved by design changes sound on other vehicles. So yes, manufacturers can make good and bad products. There are no manufactures who make only perfect products - it's not a surprise the P320 could have issues when the poster holds the P365 in such high esteem. The only thing that statement really displays is the suppression of cognitive dissonance being suddenly unachievable.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#222

Post by giantg2 »

hn_acc1 wrote: post #171
giantg2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were no reports of the unintentional acceleration in other makes.

Too young for the major news headlines about Audi?

True, I was considering the same timeframe as the Toyota issue. However, their reputation would likely be supportive of quality and be another example for my point.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#223

Post by OneDeuxTriSeiGo »

djoldman wrote: post #143
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #17

It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.

As someone who has never touched a firearm, I'm curious: what are you doing firing thousands of rounds? Is it target practice?

Yep target practice. There's different types. There's obviously your, slow, precise target practice focusing on tight groupings and hitting the target where you want to hit it however there are a bunch of other more specialised drills for training reaction speed and ability to actually perform at a moments notice.

While your initial drills start out using relatively few rounds at a time, more complex/difficult drills involve far more rounds, often requiring multiple magazines and multiple targets. These types of drills are generally aren't done at your basic indoor shooting galley ranges but even there there are plenty of ways to burn through a substantial amount of ammunition.

And while part of it is that in general shooting as a hobby is fun, another part is that some types of drills just require a lot of ammunition. ex: malfunction clearing drills where there are non-functional rounds mixed in to your magazines and you need to perform your drills with as little time loss compared to normal as possible. i.e. knowing how to react when things go wrong under pressure.

And so a single range day can easily put someone through tens of magazines which quickly gets into the hundreds of rounds. Then assuming you are going to the range weekly, biweekly, or monthly, that puts you into thousands or even tens of thousands of rounds per year.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#224

Post by mrbonner »

The Glock, on the other hand, doesn't have a safety lever. Instead, it uses a double trigger pull mechanism to help prevent accidental firing. I've often wondered if a safety lever gives people a false sense of security. With the Glock, you must always assume the gun is ready to fire, which requires careful handling.

I thought most law enforcement and military agencies use the Glock as standard issue. Isn't it?

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#225

Post by relaxing »

BeetleB wrote: post #96
tshaddox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

I recently got into handguns and training. I recommend everyone who has access to it go into training where you take a real handgun that's been modified to shoot laser and has CO2 recoil. The setup is that you have a screen (perhaps all around you), playing out a scenario. You're in a convenience store, and something may happen that requires you to defend yourself. Even with a fair amount of training, the adrenalin s…

> But if you have good reason to believe someone is after you, this is the only way to go.

What pray tell is this hypothetical threat? Who is this attacker who comes in your bedroom in the middle of the night to use lethal force against you, but gives you time to rouse, grab your weapon, and acquire target? Or they wake you by running in with full knowledge committed to memory of the layout of your house and your sleeping arrangements so that they can beat you to your gun safe? They’ve cased the joint but they’re not going to wait until you come out to get in your car in the morning?

If you believe someone is after you, your resources would be better spent getting support from others, or physically securing your living space, or getting the hell out of dodge.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#226

Post by TiredOfLife »

nickpinkston wrote: post #159
Khaine wrote: post #129

Ian from Forgotten Weapons posted an interesting video on this a while back: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QusWrho19zE And then a more recent follow up https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY

+1 Forgotten Weapons Ian ("Gun Jesus") is amazing, even just from a history / engineering perspective. I like it far better than more Michael Bay leaning content in that space, though there's good fun in a "Can this 50 cal go thru X ?" videos haha.

[flagged]

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#227

Post by relaxing »

gottorf wrote: post #172
recursivecaveat wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> saw a video where someone 3 yards away draws a machete and runs at the other person. It's probably best to be realistic about what is possible. If somebody tried to whack you on the sidewalk with a machete, they would win 100% of the time, because you're not living 24/7 in a hyper-alert paranoid state keeping an incredibly close eye on everyone 360° around you. Unless you've drawn your weapon 100s of times in near-…

> If you're going to live in a society you just kind of have to accept that you could hypothetically be killed in broad daylight by a very-motivated someone with no real opportunity to defend yourself. This is absolutely true, but security in depth, right? Just because it's easy for you to die in public, whether from a premeditated attack or an accident, doesn't mean it's pointless to add on a few layers to make that…

> everything happens in the margins

including accidentally shooting yourself, accidentally shooting the wrong person, getting shot by someone else who misread who was the good guy with the gun and the bad guy with the gun, and turning it on yourself when the pressure of it all gets to be too much.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#228

Post by giantg2 »

lenerdenator wrote: post #142
giantg2 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be crazy when they're completely separate systems?

Usually, when a company makes something good, the things they make that are similar to that thing are also good. Conceptually, the P365 and the P320 are very similar. Semiautomatic, striker-fired, polymer-framed, tilting-barrel centerfire pistols with replaceable serialized fire control modules. One's just bigger than the other. The guts of it are what changed, and you wouldn't think it'd be too hard to implement the…

The fact that it's smaller changes two important factors for trigger systems - mass and geometry. Geometric differences for things like sear engagement or even travel of the striker before encountering the block can change how it functions. Mass is another critical element when it comes to dropping it and how the parts could move to release the striker, etc. These are the types of changes they tried to implement in the FCU update for the P320. The P365 is a completely different design for the FCU anyways. For all we know the fatal difference could be that the stamped housing for the P320 FCU flexes in a certain way to trigger the disconnect while the P365 is machined and doesn't flex as much or in the same way. Whether or not something like that would scale without affecting the desired weight or dimensions, I dont know. It certainly would affect price for larger stainless billet and more machining.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#229

Post by BeetleB »

relaxing wrote: post #225
BeetleB wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently got into handguns and training. I recommend everyone who has access to it go into training where you take a real handgun that's been modified to shoot laser and has CO2 recoil. The setup is that you have a screen (perhaps all around you), playing out a scenario. You're in a convenience store, and something may happen that requires you to defend yourself. Even with a fair amount of training, the adrenalin s…

> But if you have good reason to believe someone is after you, this is the only way to go. What pray tell is this hypothetical threat? Who is this attacker who comes in your bedroom in the middle of the night to use lethal force against you, but gives you time to rouse, grab your weapon, and acquire target? Or they wake you by running in with full knowledge committed to memory of the layout of your house and your sle…

> What pray tell is this hypothetical threat?

I said "if you have good reason to believe someone is after you". That precludes hypothetical threats.

People sometimes make enemies who threaten to kill them. Some of them actually try to kill them. Some of them are people who know them and their house/apartment intimately. Start looking around. Lots and lots of cases of people who get out on bail and kill the person in the next few days.

> They’ve cased the joint but they’re not going to wait until you come out to get in your car in the morning?

If you're going to kill someone, are you going to do it that openly, when it may be easier to do it in the home?

> If you believe someone is after you, your resources would be better spent getting support from others, or physically securing your living space, or getting the hell out of dodge.

I actually agree, with the caveat that only the last one works, and is not feasible for many.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#230

Post by BeetleB »

gottorf wrote: post #172
recursivecaveat wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> saw a video where someone 3 yards away draws a machete and runs at the other person. It's probably best to be realistic about what is possible. If somebody tried to whack you on the sidewalk with a machete, they would win 100% of the time, because you're not living 24/7 in a hyper-alert paranoid state keeping an incredibly close eye on everyone 360° around you. Unless you've drawn your weapon 100s of times in near-…

> If you're going to live in a society you just kind of have to accept that you could hypothetically be killed in broad daylight by a very-motivated someone with no real opportunity to defend yourself. This is absolutely true, but security in depth, right? Just because it's easy for you to die in public, whether from a premeditated attack or an accident, doesn't mean it's pointless to add on a few layers to make that…

Indeed. I know someone who owns a gun and lives in a very sketchy area. The previous tenant in the apartment was a drug dealer, so sketchy people keep knocking on the door.

Making it very clear that he owns a gun effectively drives all of them away.

But that's where you make clear you have a gun. Concealed carry, by definition, is hiding that fact. There are pros and cons to open carry, but IMO, if you want the gun to act as a deterrent, open carry probably is a lot more effective than concealed carry.

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