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Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

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Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#221

Post by michaelhoney »

throw83944i888 wrote: post #37
owenthejumper wrote: post #5

It's incredible how much damage we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much effort do we now need to spend to undo that damage

> how much effort do we now need to spend to undo that Moving a few wolfs, I would hardly call that effort! Stopping regulations and allowing some hunters in Yellowstone would have similar effects! It is more like morons, who do not understand biology are in goverment! Overprotection allowed elk overpopulation!

It really wouldn't. Hunters aren't very effective for deer control: they are interested in shooting impressive bucks, which doesn't make a substantial dent on populations.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#222

Post by asacrowflies »

pishpash wrote: post #199
gdubs wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great question. We've restored over 20 acres of native ecosystems at our farm in the PNW, and one thing that's clear is that some conservationists are attempting to essentially create a painting of a particular moment in time. Others are more pragmatic and flexible — not seeing all non-native elements as "bad". I think where I come down is trying to remove elements that threaten to take over and destroy the…

What is "balance"?

Equilibrium, steady state, stable, self healing/correcting, sustainable, resilient to disturbance...

dynamic state where the interactions between living organisms and their environment are in harmony, allowing for the continuation of essential ecological functions.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#223

Post by derdi »

appointment wrote: post #163
derdi wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The problem across most of North America and Europe is that hunters do not kill enough, and the number of hunters is declining as rural communities shrink.

I wasn't able to cram all hunting propaganda tropes into one post, but you are right that "when we kill for fun, its actually an important service we provide to society, and you should show some gratitude!!" is right up there. Bonus points for forgetting to state the problem you are supposedly solving.

Though it's refreshing to see a hunting proponent admit that humans with guns are not actually capable of solving the problem they are claiming to solve.

It's clear that we need some sort of distributed self-organizing agent-based solution that doesn't rely on humans in the loop. We could call it the Low maintenance Unsupervised Predatory Ungulate control System, or L.U.P.U.S. for short.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#224

Post by cindyllm »

derdi wrote: post #223
appointment wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem across most of North America and Europe is that hunters do not kill enough, and the number of hunters is declining as rural communities shrink.

I wasn't able to cram all hunting propaganda tropes into one post, but you are right that "when we kill for fun, its actually an important service we provide to society, and you should show some gratitude!!" is right up there. Bonus points for forgetting to state the problem you are supposedly solving. Though it's refreshing to see a hunting proponent admit that humans with guns are not actually capable of solving th…

[dead]

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#226

Post by KurSix »

mkw5053 wrote: post #23

It's amazing the impact that the reintroduction has had. On a recent winter trip there I also learned that the reintroduction literally moved rivers [1]: - Elk quit loitering along streams, so willow and cottonwood shot up, anchoring soil and narrowing channels. - The new woody growth gave beavers lumber; their colonies jumped from one in 1996 to a dozen within fifteen years, raising water tables and rebuilding wetla…

It sounds like something out of a fable, but it's literally just ecology doing its thing once balance is restored

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#227

Post by KurSix »

pcmaffey wrote: post #64

There’s a raging battle to decimate wolf populations in Montana. I’d encourage any and all to speak up. https://fwp.mt.gov/aboutfwp/public-comment-opportunities Click on the dropdown for “Fall 2025–Winter 2026 Furbearer and Wolf Trapping and Hunting Seasons and Quotas.” > Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks (MTFWP) is proposing new, despicable wolf hunting regulations that could allow up to 500 wolves to be killed. This…

The science is pretty clear on the ecological role of wolves, yet here we are debating whether to wipe out half a state's population

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#228

Post by KurSix »

rr808 wrote: post #57

I talked to a local who was friends with ranchers who now lose stock to wolves. They hate it. Its an interesting use case of local control, is the greater good more important than the people who live there?

I think framing it as "locals vs. greater good" oversimplifies things

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#229

Post by KurSix »

floatrock wrote: post #99
rr808 wrote: post #57

I talked to a local who was friends with ranchers who now lose stock to wolves. They hate it. Its an interesting use case of local control, is the greater good more important than the people who live there?

Or it's a reflection on is individualism really a thing when everything is actually interconnected? "The greater good" is a bit abstract, and your framing suggests it's somehow separate from "the people who live there". A different framing of this question is should individuals be able to degrade ecosystem wealth in order to maximize their personal wealth? This is the climate story in microcosm. We all know burning c…

The logic of short-term gain at the expense of long-term viability is the same, just dressed up in different costumes

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#230

Post by subscribed »

dboreham wrote: post #210
bsder wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But deer are pretty?! Deer are simply tall, disease-carrying vermin--basically rats with long legs. They eat everything. They multiply like bloody rabbits. They host a ton of diseases--especially when overpopulated (effectively everywhere that doesn't have lots of wolves or big cats). I really don't understand why we don't hunt them aggressively when there is no apex carnivore to keep them under control.

Hmm. I live among deer. They're fairly pleasant creatures and interact with other species such as magpies and house cats. We do have pumas and a few human hunters, and high speed motor vehicles, possibly the odd wolf here and there although I've never see one. Over 25 years I haven't noticed an increase in their population.

Oh yeah, but I'm talking about the UK. All the big predators, cats, wolves, have been eradicated. Hell, even bears and boars.

It's this bad.

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