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Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

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Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello from Spain, you cultural colonialist. Here it is pretty typical to curse in professional environments.

Just typical? There are places where writing down passwords to post-it notes is typical too, doesn't make it very professional, not without a great deal of sarcasm at the very least, or some good old bikeshedding about semantics. > you cultural colonialist Well at least you got that part of your insult quota completed for the day. People throw around terms like "colonialist" way too easy these days. One would think i…

I'm assuming you're not Spanish, and work with some Spaniards in the context of a company that's not Spanish, or is multi-national, or something like that.

Perhaps the difference you see is that the Spaniards you work with censor themselves because they believe you or others will be offended. But perhaps when it's just those Spaniards together, or when, say, they are working for a Spanish company where everyone else is Spanish, they let loose and are quite vulgar, because that's socially and professional acceptable in those contexts.

I'm not Spanish either. I'm American and am very aware of the polite sensibilities you're talking about in professional settings. But even that can differ. I joined a previous company when it was around 50 people in total, and stayed with that company as it grew to around 10,000. When we were 50 people there was lots of in-person swearing and poor-taste jokes, because we were small enough to know what most/all people would be comfortable with. But as the company grew, that happened less and less, because people could never be sure of the audience for what they were saying. (I had a similar, if less drastic, experience at another company that grew even just from 15 people to 200.)

This phenomenon seems entirely normal, in pretty much any place, though the details of what is and isn't offensive can be different depending on region or culture.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bland hellscape of conformity I see three reasons to use swearwords sparingly, even though they don’t particularly offend me. 1 Managing my own emotions. Most swearing is negative and that drags you down which is not very productive or fun. 2 Managing others‘ emotions as they burst out, which stresses the people around the swearer. 3 Some people just can’t say a fucking sentence without gratuitous swearing which ma…

> 3 Some people just can’t say a fucking sentence without gratuitous swearing which makes them sound fucking stupid. I think this is subjective.

It’s also incredibly cultural.

Swearing in the workplace is much more normal here in Australia. In my first job at an American company, I was shocked how prissy people were about swearing. In my head I thought “these are adults, right? Why is everyone acting like a blushing teenager?”. I’m sure I sounded rough as guts to them. It took ages to learn to scale it back depending on who I was talking to.

Swearing with someone about / at work is kinda an Australian way to say “I trust you and feel relaxed around you”. Forcing myself to not swear felt at first like I was pretending I didn’t like my coworkers. It was weird.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fault doesn't really have anything to do with the original assertion. In any case, that's a pretty weird take on comedy. When you hear a joke, do you ponder it, decide to interpret it as funny, and then deliberately choose to laugh?

People take offense, whether the other person intentionally gave it or not. I choose not to be offended by anything what soever. Humor on the other hand is a lot harder to deal with.

I don’t think you understand why things are funny.

Almost everything that gets a laugh in a comedy show isn’t funny because it’s clever. What happens is the comedian says something “obvious”. They say something that you were kinda already thinking - even if you weren’t consciously aware of it. We laugh because we’re acknowledged and feel seen for what we were already thinking, and when lots of people laugh it feels good because we feel connected to the group. Our laughter is a release of tension connected to feeling part of the group.

If you don’t believe me, do the experiment for yourself. Watch a comedy show. When people laugh, ask yourself why they laughed then.

My favorite example is this clip of Billy Connolly from back when he would play the banjo on stage. Just as he goes to play the first note, the string on his banjo snaps. There’s this awkward pause, and tension in the audience. Then he looks up at the crowd and says “Well that’s just gone and F-ed it, hasn’t it?” And everyone laughs. My take is this: We were all holding tension. He said the obvious thing. We laugh because suddenly everyone realises we aren’t alone in our tension - suddenly we’re all (including the comedian) in this experience together.

“Offensive” humour is even more subversive than people think because it makes it common knowledge that we were all thinking some thought. It’s an opportunity to collectively acknowledge of our humanity. And that’s something some people (perversely) want us to deny.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just typical? There are places where writing down passwords to post-it notes is typical too, doesn't make it very professional, not without a great deal of sarcasm at the very least, or some good old bikeshedding about semantics. > you cultural colonialist Well at least you got that part of your insult quota completed for the day. People throw around terms like "colonialist" way too easy these days. One would think i…

> Just typical? There are places where writing down passwords to post-it notes is typical too, doesn't make it very professional... Nice, now with extra patronizing, just the flavor we inferior cultures apparently crave. > Gotta say, pretty weird though, the Spaniards I work with are normal people who can distinguish just fine... Ah yes, the Spaniards you work with. Let me guess, you can count them on one hand, right…

> Nice, now with extra patronizing, just the flavor we inferior cultures apparently crave.

Oh no! Sounds like somebody just figured out that insults work both ways!

> Let me guess, you can count them on one hand, right?

If I needed two, would that help? Three? Four? [0] Would it? Really?

> Let’s be clear: I've been working in Spain for nearly 25 years. Cursing is common here.

Let's be extra clear then! That's not what's being discussed!!!

Are you deliberately missing the point somehow? Do you see parentheses and skip right on?

> waiting to be corrected by the wisdom of outside standards

And this is especially not what's being discussed. What's being discussed is if it's waiting to be corrected by the wisdom of inside standards. If people there think they're being unprofessional when using foul language in codebases or formal corporate communications, and if that even happens. An event of mere (albeit severe) disbelief. Although if I were to believe you, an event of "cultural colonialism". Because apparently having an assumption or a negative impression is somehow inherently oppressive (???), and like how do I even dare to think that way? Sensitivities, huh?

Except you keep not talking about that for whatever reason. You keep going off about how people curse all the time. Of course they do. That was never the question! Do you include foul language when sending out advisories or quotes or other formal documents, to clients or internally? Do you include foul language and rants in the work you deliver, be it in commit messages, tickets, ticket comments, release notes, checklists, or code comments? That's what I want you to tell me, with every single one of those amazing, one of a kind, definitely maximally representative of everyone and everywhere else in the country 25 years of experience.

Because supposedly, according to you, all of these will be chock full of cursing!

> the kind where people don't filter themselves for fear of offending delicate American sensibilities

The delicate American sensibilities of a Central-Eastern European. Of not including foul language in code comments and such. Are you actually taking a piss? This is a fever dream, it has to be. You're acting as if I could drive for a few days and enter a foreign planet. You guys are not nearly that special and different, I'm sorry. Maybe except for turrón, no idea how to enjoy that with or without having my dentist on speed dial, I'll admit to that much.

[0] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/oh-you-love-x-name-every-y

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3 Some people just can’t say a fucking sentence without gratuitous swearing which makes them sound fucking stupid. I think this is subjective.

It’s also incredibly cultural. Swearing in the workplace is much more normal here in Australia. In my first job at an American company, I was shocked how prissy people were about swearing. In my head I thought “these are adults, right? Why is everyone acting like a blushing teenager?”. I’m sure I sounded rough as guts to them. It took ages to learn to scale it back depending on who I was talking to. Swearing with som…

This is a great real world example of why we need cultural competency training. Here it would be an HR led class where we practice swearing while talking to the new Aussie coworker(s) in order to make them feel comfortable and improve their performance and ease onboarding.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#226
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just typical? There are places where writing down passwords to post-it notes is typical too, doesn't make it very professional, not without a great deal of sarcasm at the very least, or some good old bikeshedding about semantics. > you cultural colonialist Well at least you got that part of your insult quota completed for the day. People throw around terms like "colonialist" way too easy these days. One would think i…

I'm assuming you're not Spanish, and work with some Spaniards in the context of a company that's not Spanish, or is multi-national, or something like that. Perhaps the difference you see is that the Spaniards you work with censor themselves because they believe you or others will be offended. But perhaps when it's just those Spaniards together, or when, say, they are working for a Spanish company where everyone else…

I'm indeed not Spanish, and I'm not particularly close with any of my Spanish colleagues either. This means we do not chat informally, and as such, I do not expect foul language - and indeed, they do not engage in any towards me. This very strongly indicates to me that they're perfectly aware what is the standard, where the lines lie, and what manner of conduct they should hold themselves to in a formal, professional setting. So we're culturally on the same page. They did not need any special training that I'm aware of to not push up foul language comments or commits either.

This is not about informal conduct. If they cuss among themselves or towards other colleagues who they are close to, that's completely of no interest to me, and as you say, is just plain normal. I do it with my closer peers as well all the time. This is about the work delivered and the formal communications. And I can understand if this informal speech seeps into work stuff at smaller scales, but that doesn't mean it's right. As you say, it's about everyone being on the same page and cutting themselves slack - but that does mean they are cutting slack, and so that there's a shared understanding of it not being proper, just being okay. According to the GP above though, this is not how it goes in Spain specifically, and it's an alternate reality there where commit histories and code comments will be full of cheap innuendo and cursing, and that that is somehow still completely professional there supposedly.

Well I'll be damned and be the ""cultural colonialist"" then, but I just do not buy that for one second. These standards were not invented yesterday, are not even specific to our industry, and are not nearly geo-localized enough for that to happen.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bland hellscape of conformity I see three reasons to use swearwords sparingly, even though they don’t particularly offend me. 1 Managing my own emotions. Most swearing is negative and that drags you down which is not very productive or fun. 2 Managing others‘ emotions as they burst out, which stresses the people around the swearer. 3 Some people just can’t say a fucking sentence without gratuitous swearing which ma…

> 3 Some people just can’t say a fucking sentence without gratuitous swearing which makes them sound fucking stupid. I think this is subjective.

I was thinking the opposite actually. https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-inte...

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#228

Theory: the shift towards lesser swearwords is a sign of corporatization, making the linux source a soulless bland hellscape of confirmity.

> bland hellscape of conformity I see three reasons to use swearwords sparingly, even though they don’t particularly offend me. 1 Managing my own emotions. Most swearing is negative and that drags you down which is not very productive or fun. 2 Managing others‘ emotions as they burst out, which stresses the people around the swearer. 3 Some people just can’t say a fucking sentence without gratuitous swearing which ma…

Swearing is like a pen. You can use it to draw a crude penis in a bathroom stall, or you can use it to create amazing works of art.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally care about language choices in code, but I'll play devil's advocate and speculate as to why a business might be concerned. 1. Reputational harm in the event that code needs to be shared. Say, the code gets read in court, or an outside consultant is brought in who is given access to the code. The company likely wants to maintain the same standard of professionalism that they expect when their employ…

I can swear a lot while talking. I have never written a curse word in my code, especially professionally. Just seems odd and not useful? I wouldn't be offended if I came across one, but it seems weird to use in a professional setting? A lot of the times I have seen inappropriate words used were not in any context and were used as a "joke" when logging/debugging. So "dicks 01" or "fuck me 01" instead of a bland "check…

> I can swear a lot while talking. I have never written a curse word in my code, especially professionally.

I can swear a lot while talking. I have, once or twice, written curses in my code, sometimes including curse words, especially professionally. "Within this function lie buried the bones of those intrepid explorers who came before you. It is hallowed ground, and cursed be thy soul if you re-order anything without a +2 from a priest. You have been warned."

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#230
It's pretty simple. More swearing implies better code because you know someone made it with passion instead of making it for resume-padding or soulless corpo stuff;)

If the stupid HR doesn't like it, you are doing something right.

It also conveniently filters out the permanently triggered people, doesn't matter which variety it is.

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