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The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

kaveland.no

221–230 of 346 posts

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YET.

It's very possible that they never will, that instead the advertising will be so subtle nobody will be able to detect it. Including phrases similar to what products, brands, and their actual ads use in positive contexts, sentences that don't mention but make you think of products, being just slightly likely to bring a brand up than its competitor, and a tiny bit more critical of it, etc. The goal isn't to have an ad-…

> It's very possible that they never will, that instead the advertising will be so subtle nobody will be able to detect it.

I was going to write a rebuttal to this, about how more subtle forms of advertising are likely not very effective, and then I remembered subliminal advertising.

It's largely been banned (I think), but probably only because it's relatively easy to define and very easy to identify. In the case of LLMs, defining what they shouldn't be allowed to do "subliminally" will be a lot harder, and identifying it could be all but impossible without inside knowledge.

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#222
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe there IS such a thing as a free lunch after all! A free lunch that costs our environment though, which is a big caveat :-)

The idea that LLMs are uniquely bad for the environment has been debunked. https://andymasley.substack.com/p/individual-ai-use-is-not-b...

I've already seen this.

I'm not convinced. This article focuses on individual use and how inconsequential it is, but it seems like to me it dismisses the training part that it does mention a bit too fast to my taste.

> it’s a one-time cost

No, it's not. AI company constantly train new models and that's where the billions of dollars they get go into. It's only logical: they try to keep improving. What's more, the day you stop training new models, the existing models will "rot": they will keep working, but on old data, they won't be fresh anymore. the training will continue, constantly.

An awful quantity of hardware and resources are being monopolized where they could be allocated to something worthier, or just not allocated at all.

> Individuals using LLMs like ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini collectively only account for about 3% of AI’s total energy use after amortizing the cost of training.

Yeah, we agree, running queries is comparatively cheap (still 10 times more than a regular search query though, if I'm to believe this article (and I have no reason not to)) after amortizing the cost of training. But there's no after, as we've seen.

As long as these companies are burning billions of dollars, they are burning some correlated amount of CO2.

As an individual, I don't want to signal to these companies, through my use of their LLMs, that they should keep going like this.

And as AI is more and more pervasive, we are going to start relying on it very hard, and we are also going to train models on everything, everywhere (chat messages, (video) calls, etc). The training is far from being a one shot activity and it's only going to keep increasing as long as there are rich believers willing to throw shit-tons of money into this.

Now, assuming these AIs do a good job of providing accurate answers that you don't have to spend more time on proofreading / double checking (which I'm not sure they always do), we are unfortunately not replacing the time we won by nothing. We are still in a growth economy, the time that is freed will be used to produce even more garbage, at an even faster rate.

(I don't like that last argument very much though, I'm not for keeping people busy at inefficient tasks just because, but this unfortunately needs to be taken in account - and that's, as a software developer, a harsh reality that also applies to my day to day job. As a software developer, my job is to essentially automatize tasks for people so they can have more free time because now the computers can do their work a bit more. But as a species, we've not increased our free time. We've just made it more fast-paced and stressful)

The article also mentions that there are other things to look into to improve things related to climate change, but the argument goes both ways: fighting against power hungry LLMs don't prevent you from addressing other causes.

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m constantly confused why Google wants me to use Gemini so much. Why would they want me to use an AI that doesn’t show ads, isn’t their search, and costs them money to generate the responses? The instant we see ads in LLMs we will stop using them, it will be as abrupt and as annoying as the vuvuzela example because using an LLM is a very intimate interaction. It will feel much more jarring when your intimate chat f…

> The instant we see ads in LLMs we will stop using them People didn’t stop using Google Search, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok and a myriad other services and products (and things like TV before those) because they got ads.

It's not just ads but plenty of dark patterns. At some point as a user you no longer have much control and no longer get what you were looking for and decide to leave. But the slow boiling leaves a lot of frogs in the pan, it will probably be a slow decay before death. To me browsing the net is unusable without ad blockers but there are many users out there who don't know what ad blockers are.

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#224

I built a portal that makes it easier to query against multiple different search engines ( https://allsear.ch/ ). It's open source, free, all that. I must say, building it really expanded my view of the internet. I am also a heavy Kagi and Reddit user for search, and usually that's enough. But when it's not, its concerning how much better other search engines can be, especially since non-tech savvy folks will never u…

using my default browser (brave) and pressing "enter" (doing a search) did not do anything. The page just sits there.

apparently, I need to make a selection of a search engine to use this.

I would not use this as a replacement for my duckduckgo or google searches simply because of the UX of not being able to type a query and press "enter" as the default.

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#225
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe there IS such a thing as a free lunch after all! A free lunch that costs our environment though, which is a big caveat :-)

Maybe. But to be honest, optimizing monstrously slow processes that cost weeks of human labour by automating them, that saves a ton of energy as well. It’s not zero sum, as the humans spend that energy elsewhere, but ideally they spend it on more productive things. This calculus can very quickly offset whatever energy is wasted generating cartoon images of vuvuzelas.

> optimizing monstrously slow processes that cost weeks of human labour by automating them, that saves a ton of energy as well

Yes, I do agree with this. However, that's only good as long as there wasn't a better way of optimizing them. Assuming we'd not be better off getting rid of those costly process altogether.

> ideally they spend it on more productive things

Same gotcha as mentioned in my other comment: "productive" in our growth economy often means "damaging to the environment", because we are collectively spending a lot of our time producing garbage and that's not something we should really optimize. Most of us work a fixed amount of hours so it's not like we are doing ourselves any favor by optimizing time in the end.

In another system, I wouldn't say. I'm generally for freeing up time for us so we can have better lives.

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I miss Altavista every day. Case-sensitive search is how you tell DOS from DoS. Putting "exact phrases" in quotes no longer seems to work. Then they added insult to injury by forcing you to +mandate a term otherwise they might just ignore it. Now that no longer works either. I've entirely given up on Google. I've made extensive shortcuts so I can directly search various sites straight from my location bar: wikipedia,…

> Putting "exact phrases" in quotes no longer seems to work. Then they added insult to injury by forcing you to +mandate a term otherwise they might just ignore it. Now that no longer works either. I don't understand why they got rid of these escape hatches. Sometimes I want the "top" pages containing precisely the text I enter -- no stemming, synonyms, etc. Maybe it shouldn't be the default, but why make it impossib…

I have a solution: search engine which uses machine learning to score the "commercialness" of a page. By commercialness, I mean: is it a table of products with prices; does it have buy buttons; does it use a lot of tracking and analytics; does it have a cart; is there a lot of product talk (and is it overbiased positively); how are all the pages within a couple link-degrees scoring; ... (and more). Then, give users a slider which right side means no filtering, left side means basically only return universities, Wikipedia, and PBS tier results.

This has to track number of ads and trackers in a page and not just be about product pages. This measure should also fight SEO spam, as the tracking and advertising elements would cause SEO spammers to lose rank on the engine (disincentivising an arms race).

Add in the patently obvious need for the poweruser's 2nd search bar, which takes set notation statements and at least one of a few popular powerful regex languages, and finally add cookie stored, user-suppliable domain blacklists and whitelists (which can be downloaded as a .txt and reuploaded later on a new browser profile if needed). I never ever want to see Experts Exchange for any reason in my results, as an immediately grasped example. Give the users more control, quit automagicking everything behind a conversationally universal idiot-bar!

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#227
post #15

The author would do well to check out Kagi -- the search results for all of the suggested queries are, to my eye, better than the results they found. Given that Kagi's higher tier plans come with search-enabled LLM chat interfaces, and those searches use Kagi's results (which, again, appear to be superior) it seems to me that you get the best of both worlds: Better search, and better search results to feed into your…

Lately, I've been more and more disappointed with Kagi. It seems to be falling victim to the same SEO spam. For example, today I was wondering what Scala devs use as alternative to Akka. I searched for "scala akka alternative". Try the same (using Kagi). I get mostly listicles and SEO spam. I have to scroll halfway down the page to see links to "Pekko" and "Zio"... and they are hard to separate from the noise. This is just my most recent example... it just "feels" like this happens a lot more, even with Kagi now.

However, the reason I started paying for Kagi was because they let me completely block websites from search results -- and they still let me do that. That feature alone will keep me as a paying customer for the near term.

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#228
post #15

The author would do well to check out Kagi -- the search results for all of the suggested queries are, to my eye, better than the results they found. Given that Kagi's higher tier plans come with search-enabled LLM chat interfaces, and those searches use Kagi's results (which, again, appear to be superior) it seems to me that you get the best of both worlds: Better search, and better search results to feed into your…

Lately, I've been more and more disappointed with Kagi. It seems to be falling victim to the same SEO spam. For example, today I was wondering what Scala devs use as alternative to Akka. I searched for "scala akka alternative". Try the same (using Kagi). I get mostly listicles and SEO spam. I have to scroll halfway down the page to see links to "Pekko" and "Zio"... and they are hard to separate from the noise. This i…

To be fair to Kagi:

This was in the top three results, and I can't tell if it's "real", or just a page created to capture those exact search terms!

https://akkaalternatives.com/

If the goal of that site really is just to capture clicks via very specific web searches... and people are creating sites like that at scale... what hope do we have of saving the web? :-(

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#229
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really strange, while I agree Google's results aren't as good as they used to be, they're still miles ahead of DDG for me. Is it because I still use keyword search like it's the early 2000s? I tried to switch to DDG because Google was blocking Hurricane Electric IPv6 tunnels. DDG is still my homepage but I usually end up clicking the bookmark I made for ipv4.google.com. I wish I knew why DDG works for all you pe…

Does you Google actually respect the keywords? For me, most of the times it replaces words with "synonyms" (mostly wrong context or not really replaceable). And results are pretty crap as a result - no what I was looking for, but just much more common/generic stuff.

If I put them in quotes, yeah.

Re: The librarian immediately attempts to sell you a vuvuzela

#230
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really strange, while I agree Google's results aren't as good as they used to be, they're still miles ahead of DDG for me. Is it because I still use keyword search like it's the early 2000s? I tried to switch to DDG because Google was blocking Hurricane Electric IPv6 tunnels. DDG is still my homepage but I usually end up clicking the bookmark I made for ipv4.google.com. I wish I knew why DDG works for all you pe…

Isn’t DDG basically Bing with a privacy layer?

That's what I've been told. I haven't tried Bing directly because... eww... but I assume the results would be similar to DDG.
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