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France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

social.numerique.gouv.fr

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Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#221
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is definitely untrue > Obviously, everyone still use Office because, well, there is no alternative to Office So it is, indeed, true. Can you clarify what your point is, exactly? (Also: there is an alternative to MS Office, which is LibreOffice. It works ok. It's not as powerful, maybe (maybe!) but it's fine.) > Do you realise how funny it is to see you complain that you can't see the car companies in a data ba…

> So it is, indeed, true. Office is a fairly unsignificant part of our cloud usage. I'm fairly sure we could come to an agreement with Microsoft if we needed to self-host. > there is an alternative to MS Office, which is LibreOffice People don't use Office like it's the 90s anymore. Everything which doesn't have seemless collaboration and document sharing is dead on arrival. > No, I really don't. It's not "awesome" t…

>Everything which doesn't have seemless collaboration and document sharing is dead on arrival.

cryptpad do exist as well as collabora office and anyoffice running in a nextcloud.

My observation however is that despite the sharing capabilities of office365, a lot of people even in fortune500 companies still email .docx files to work collaboratively instead of using he sharing capabilities.

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah. It used to be that Microsoft products were sleek, fast, and just plain more convenient than Open Source products. E.g. OpenOffice vs MS Office. And honestly, OS stuff still often sucks quite a bit. It's just that MS software has degraded to the point of utter shittiness (see: Teams) that now it's just plain worse than their own software from 15 years ago.

> It's just that MS software has degraded to the point of utter shittiness (see: Teams) that now it's just plain worse than their own software from 15 years ago. I sometimes feel like I live in a parallele universe reading the comments here on Office. The addition of collaboration and how it seemlessly integrated with sharepoints while easing the sharing of documents make Office365 a blessing in most office environme…

This thread is comparing MS tools with the FR gov equivalents. So for word processing it would be Docs (https://docs.numerique.gouv.fr/home/), which is a collaborative tool, with an integrated sharing feature.

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#223

This is just for show, and facts won't follow. It's not the first time a French government vows to stick to Open Source. Yet most of the public money goes to proprietary software, and Open Source is the exception. Two months ago, the French government signed an "open bar" contract with Microsoft for the "Éducation Nationale" department. 152 M€, not for Open Source. Source (fr) https://www.april.org/nouvel-open-bar-mi…

Those are just two cases of corruption. Time will tell if this trend will continue or end.

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in other words if you provide someone software and it sets their business on fire, you're liable to repay the value of the business you set on fire. Yes, this is how all business relations work. If I sell someone a mango that sets their business on fire I'm liable for that too. Not unique to software. No difference if it's a mango full of genetically modified bacteria that spontaneously combust after a certain tim…

> Or do you expect software to be exempt from the general principles of liability? Yes. Have you read the EULA of most of the software you use ? Any of the open source licenses ? And this is why the computer world is almost the only thing that really progressed in the last decades. Because we could take that risk because in most cases nobody was gonna die (medical devices or the ABS in your car are a separate categor…

> > Or do you expect software to be exempt from the general principles of liability? Yes.

> Have you read the EULA of most of the software you use ?

> Any of the open source licenses ?

Yeah, copyright licenses don't override the law. They only provide permission under copyright law. Nothing to do with liability. Liability disclaimers are put there because it's somewhere you're supposed to have read, but they're not actually do to with copyright and they only work because the law says it's okay to provide products without liability.

Now the law says it's NOT okay to provide products without any liability unless they're free. You may or may not still be able to negotiate liability individually as part of your contract negotiations, not sure.

If I sell a mango full of giant flesh eating fly larvae I'm liable. Even if I put a warning on the box saying I'm not liable for anything. Now, if I wrote on the box in big letters that there's a chance this mango could be full of giant flesh eating fly larvae, that has some chance of holding up in court. (let's ignore that fruits aren't sold in boxes)

If I sell you some software that's easily remotely hacked and I say on the box: not liable for anything, it won't stand. If I say prominently: warning: this software is known to be highly insecure and should never be connected to the internet, and you connect it to the Internet and get hacked, I'm pretty likely to avoid liability for that. You know these cases are judged individually on their merits, right? The judge will ask you in full seriousness: why didn't you obey the bright red warning on the front of the box? Are you completely illiterate?

> We ended up with a fairly acceptable ecosystem where you can either keep your ISP provided router, buy a very suspicious one on Aliexpress, or Nitrokey, Turris (both EU companies) or one with OpenBSD.

If you import a foreign good you're liable for any consequences of it not following regulations - obviously the exporter doesn't have to because they're in a foreign country, so the buck stops with you. You'll still have that option.

Same with open source thanks to the carve out. If you use OpenBSD, they're exempted from the regulation because they're volunteers. Buck stops with you.

Are you telling me that Nitrokey and Turris can't make secure products?

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I also have to wonder if you actually know what liability is. Liability means that when there's an accident, like a building collapses, or Facebook is offline for three hours, the case may go to a judge (and/or jury) who has to decide who pays the resulting financial losses. Which is basically the same as asking whose fault it was or whose problem it is to clean up.

There are general purpose rules for this which are not exclusive to software. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice but here are some examples: if a dam collapses because the concrete was of poor quality, it's the concrete company's fault. If the concrete was of the requested quality but it needed to be better, it's the engineer's fault for choosing the wrong concrete. If it collapses because they bought screws from the hardware store and they were a little weaker than specified, it may be the maker's fault but the liability is probably going to be on the builders or engineers for relying on a cheap part without testing it. If they paid the screw maker a lot of money to make screws specifically for the dam with specific characteristics, then the screw maker can be liable.

If Facebook is down for three hours because they used MongoDB open source for free, it's Facebook's fault, period, because of the carve out. If MongoDB worked as expected but it was the wrong choice for Facebook, it's Facebook's fault for choosing it. If Facebook is down because of a Cisco router crashed, it depends: some failure rate is normal in computer equipment (unlike concrete) but if it's excessive than Cisco may be held partially liable (Facebook still should've had redundancy). If Facebook is down because they made their entire company dependent on a single fritz!box home router, and that crashed, even if the crash is the router maker's fault, Facebook is still liable because they should have tested it and because they should have had redundancy in place. If they pay Cisco for a specific order that Cisco knows is going to be in a critical position at Facebook without redundancy, Cisco might be liable (this should be specified in their individually negotiated contract).

And the cyber security one: If Cloudflare gets taken offline by a botnet of Cisco routers, Cisco is almost certainly liable, and has to pay for all of Cloudflare's business losses, maybe unless security warnings weren't followed (e.g. management interface shouldn't be connected to the internet) or unless Cloudflare should have been able to handle the amount of traffic. If it's by fritz!boxes (home routers) the bar will be even higher for fritz - these must be secure in their default configuration when installed by an inexperienced user, though expert features behind a warning should have the same standard as Cisco.

And if your commercial software takes down Cloudflare, yes, you have to pay for Cloudflare's lost money - probably making you bankrupt - and rightfully so. Why do you think someone who shoots a gun in the air and hits an unmanned plane and crashes it should have to pay for the plane, but someone who does the equivalent on the Internet shouldn't? Which is why you shouldn't shoot guns randomly at planes and you shouldn't make software that takes down Cloudflare. You still haven't told me if this is a specific risk you're concerned about.

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're only outing yourself more and more. > If the French felt a bit less entitled and a bit more grateful, the country wouldn't be in the sorry state it's currently in. Oh please. The French are doing far better than we (the US) are. Precisely because their electorate has made their aristocracy rightly fearful of them. Chopping off their heads tends to do that.

> Oh please. The French are doing far better than we (the US) are. I’m French. The French hasn’t chopped the head of their aristocracy. Despite going through five republics, two monarchies and two empires in the last two hundred years, the country has very much de facto recreated an aristocracy. It’s one of the most unequal when it comes to social mobility in the whole OECD. Ever heard of Bourdieu? What France has is…

Living in the middle of a fascist breakdown of society makes me, and all of my freedom and safety loving friends, incredibly sensitive towards it. I've had a read of some of your other posts, and my initial read of you as some American maga idiot was wrong.

That said, you are incredibly lucky to be living in a fascism-proof society and you should be thanking your fellow countrymen, all the way back to the French Revolution, for this fact. You don't have women in your hospitals dying of perfectly treatable conditions because the idiots in power have decided women don't deserve bodily autonomy.

You don't have nazis holding chainsaws tearing through your federal government. You don't have students disappearing off the streets into offshore concentration camps. You don't have tyrants arresting judges. None of these things are happening, or could happen, in France because heads would roll, again.

So color me unimpressed by your naive notions about what fascism is and isn't.

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or do you expect software to be exempt from the general principles of liability? Yes. Have you read the EULA of most of the software you use ? Any of the open source licenses ? And this is why the computer world is almost the only thing that really progressed in the last decades. Because we could take that risk because in most cases nobody was gonna die (medical devices or the ABS in your car are a separate categor…

> > Or do you expect software to be exempt from the general principles of liability? Yes. > Have you read the EULA of most of the software you use ? > Any of the open source licenses ? Yeah, copyright licenses don't override the law. They only provide permission under copyright law. Nothing to do with liability. Liability disclaimers are put there because it's somewhere you're supposed to have read, but they're not a…

What if I'm Mikrotik, a tiny company in Eastern Europe, and I sell a switch to mighty Google that causes google.com to go down. Am I liable for Google's losses? What about Google's users losses?

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#227
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Or do you expect software to be exempt from the general principles of liability? Yes. > Have you read the EULA of most of the software you use ? > Any of the open source licenses ? Yeah, copyright licenses don't override the law. They only provide permission under copyright law. Nothing to do with liability. Liability disclaimers are put there because it's somewhere you're supposed to have read, but they're not a…

What if I'm Mikrotik, a tiny company in Eastern Europe, and I sell a switch to mighty Google that causes google.com to go down. Am I liable for Google's losses? What about Google's users losses?

It's the same question as "What if I'm Sun Orchard Apples and I accidentally sell a rotten one to Elon Musk and he eats it and dies?"

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#228
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distrust is different from non-free. SSPL happens to be a free software license - that is a fact - which many people dislike - that is also a fact. The latter fact doesn't invalidate the former fact. The incompatibility between *GPL and SSPL is a very good reason to dislike SSPL. I don't like it either, but I still think it's open source. Perhaps SSPL version 2 could be written to require that the source code for oth…

> SSPL happens to be a free software license - that is a fact Says who? I assume you have irrefutable evidence for this since you are stating this with such confidence? It would be some major development in the SSPL case. > No competent capitalist entity will ever say As much as I don't like them, you need to back something you claimed. Until you do, it's just beautiful theory.

says the definition of free software. Argue in good faith or stop.

Re: France Endorses UN Open Source Principles

#230
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governance?

What governance would you need for open source? Don’t steal?

I guess my one word reply to the one sentence question wasn't really clear:

The UN can define standards and suggest processes to encourage the adoption and interoperability of free software in governance.

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