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Stack Overflow is almost dead

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

221–230 of 285 posts

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#221
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those hallucinated libraries exist in the future where the LLM lives and works. You just haven't caught up in time yet. ;-)

Ah, I see, it's that advanced? Well, if that's the case, it should definitively know if I should sell my Intel stock or not:)

I mean, we already know the answer to that: you should sell all the non-AI stocks that you own, and invest everything into AI companies. Because if you don't, a future benevolent AGI will torture your simulation for eternity. ~

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#222
post #210
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I answer questions for a few tags, know the styles of the other people who answer on those tags, and I do consider my fellow answerers as kind. All of them. That doesn't mean that you will think we're kind to you personally. We're there to build a searchable Q&A knowledge base and spread knowledge. Some people who ask questions misunderstand and think we're there to help them, personally. To work for free for that si…

Seems to me like you're part of the problem. Of course it's not my problem anymore because I no longer contribute there.

It's almost comical. SO is increasingly useless for new questions precisely because so many top contributors left (because they don't agree with this approach), while the ones that remain have convinced themselves that not only this new state of affairs is fine, it's actually preferable, and what they are doing is somehow beneficial.

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#223
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I answer questions for a few tags, know the styles of the other people who answer on those tags, and I do consider my fellow answerers as kind. All of them. That doesn't mean that you will think we're kind to you personally. We're there to build a searchable Q&A knowledge base and spread knowledge. Some people who ask questions misunderstand and think we're there to help them, personally. To work for free for that si…

How can you ask for a subject expert's help and simultaneously insist that you know better than the expert whether your question is a duplicate of another? this is easy part, I read the answer of that “duplicate” and it was not applicable to my problem :)

> I read the answer of that “duplicate” and it was not applicable to my problem

You are supposed to have a question in the first place, not just a problem. (In fact, you are not required to have had anything go wrong with your code, nor to need to know how to do something, in order to ask a question. You only need to ask a question that meets standards.)

If something was wrong with your code, and using Stack Overflow didn't enable you to fix the code, that is not Stack Overflow's concern, by design.

If you expect that your interaction with a website will enable you to fix broken code that you have, and the only standard by which you judge the website is "did I end up fixing my broken code", then Stack Overflow is not the site you want. And that's fine. There are millions of other websites out there that will also not help you fix your broken code. Why should Stack Overflow be required to do so? Just because it's about programming and accepts user-generated content? (Did you know about https://wiki.python.org/moin/ , by the way?)

If you analyzed some non-working code, and found a specific part that did something different from what you expected, and produced a MCVE (although we say https://stackoverflow.com/help/minimal-reproducible-example), then you have an acceptable question. Or if you figured out that you need to do something specific, and came up with a clear, precise specification for it, and there isn't a clear way to break the task down further into logical steps.

And when that question gets closed as a duplicate, you can bet that the accuracy rate is pretty high. You should try the answer, adapting it back to your own MCVE / specification, and then back to the original context.

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#224
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until there is a radically new version of {popular programming language} with breaking changes and no new and correct answers to train on.

These models can figure out syntax and language features they haven’t seen before. Try it with a few code snippets of your own made-up language. It’s a little freaky.

They can indeed, but 1) this takes up an inordinate amount of context, and 2) the more you force model to think about that, the less effective it is at actually writing code.

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#225
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me like you're part of the problem. Of course it's not my problem anymore because I no longer contribute there.

It's almost comical. SO is increasingly useless for new questions precisely because so many top contributors left (because they don't agree with this approach), while the ones that remain have convinced themselves that not only this new state of affairs is fine, it's actually preferable, and what they are doing is somehow beneficial.

> while the ones that remain have convinced themselves that not only this new state of affairs is fine, it's actually preferable, and what they are doing is somehow beneficial.

None of you have done anything at all to explain why it somehow isn't, except perhaps to indicate that it isn't how you want the site to work. Or that the company is losing business. (As a reminder, the company has never paid any of us a red cent.)

Why is it "comical" for people you don't identify with to have a vision?

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#226

I think "number of questions asked" is the wrong metric. Because it feels like all the questions have already been asked. Whenever I need to know something, I can google it and find answers on Stack Overflow. I can't remember the last time I actually had to ask something. Or the last time I found a question that didn't already have a good answer. Stack Overflow's library of question is pretty complete, and the only r…

I find that most of the time, when doing research on anything non-trivial, I find a question on SO about this exact problem that has no answers because it was closed by the mods as a duplicate of something that doesn't actually answer that question (but rather something very vaguely related to it).

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#227
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I answer questions for a few tags, know the styles of the other people who answer on those tags, and I do consider my fellow answerers as kind. All of them. That doesn't mean that you will think we're kind to you personally. We're there to build a searchable Q&A knowledge base and spread knowledge. Some people who ask questions misunderstand and think we're there to help them, personally. To work for free for that si…

Reading between the lines, this is extremely telling. Of course, nobody is a villain in their own story. Members of online communities who drive others away are often just simply blind to the impact they are having - an existential impact in the case of Stack Overflow sadly.

When someone new comes to Stack Overflow, and tries to get something from it that it's explicitly not there to provide, and I politely say "hey here are some documents about what the site is and what we expect from questions, I'm sorry but we can't allow people to answer this without addressing these problems, because the purpose of questions here isn't actually to work with you one-on-one and get your code to work", and then that person swears at me and is never heard from again...

... No, I am not at all "blind" to the fact that I'm "driving" people like that away, or to the "impact" I'm having. I've read many of their off-site rants, too. It's a popular art form, even. So popular that sometimes people bring links to it back to the meta site. So popular that the company staff occasionally try to lecture us about it. After all, it's bad for the bottom line when people don't stick around and watch ads (and to hell with whatever else they do on the site).

But those documents objectively exist; the standards are established and thoroughly documented; the questions objectively are there to build a reference (this is even described right up front in https://stackoverflow.com/tour , although the wording is still lacking and we aren't empowered to fix it); as an objective matter we don't provide a help desk, debugging service or support forum; and swearing at me is a code of conduct violation.

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#228
post #209
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the first time I’ve ever heard someone describe the stack overflow community as “kind”. Usually it’s the exact opposite: “I asked a question and just got 30 questions asking why I’m trying to do this” or “my question was closed for seemingly no reason”. It’s literally the most blunt and aggressive website I’ve ever been on that wasn’t a straight-up troll site like 4-Chan.

Agree! A decade ago it wasn't like this. But it has devolved into a community of vandals who seem to take glee in criticizing the manner in which a question is asked, rather than contributing a solution.

> vandals

How is it vandalism to enforce a quality standard?

> who seem to take glee

Why do you imagine so?

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>You are expected before posting to have done enough analysis to the point where if your question is answered , you can solve the underlying problem yourself. >If I can solve the problem myself, why do you think I would ask a question? You are expected to be able to analyze the problem to the point where you have one specific question, get the answer, and solve the problem now that you have the answer . That is: we…

> You are expected to be able to analyze the problem to the point where you have one specific question, get the answer, and solve the problem now that you have the answer. > That is: we will not do the analysis for you. We will fill in the gap in your knowledge. I see. That makes more sense, I misinterpreted your original reply. That said, many times I did find the specific question I had, but the question was closed…

>was for whatever reason not exactly what I was looking for.

See: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/384711 https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/254697 https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/385343 https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/426205

Not to dismiss you - but it's important to understand what the standard is for "duplication". This has changed over the years because the original (very narrow) interpretation turned out to be unviable - it doesn't scale. (And "it doesn't scale" is a big part of why Stack Overflow was created - where "it" is the traditional discussion forum model.)

>but it has been a while that I found the answer I was looking for on SO.

Because your search query is equally suited to find a bunch of garbage questions that should have been closed (and then deleted when they weren't improved) - often ones that are about something completely different, but click-bait because of the words in the title (often a result of OP completely misidentifying the problem and not producing a proper MRE).

>asking a meaningful question takes effort

It does. In fact, when I've written self-answered Q&A to share knowledge, I've often found the question harder than the answer.

The reputation system was very poorly conceived. It incentivizes terrible behaviours, while the best results will come from intrinsic motivation anyway. (Plus it carries the implicit assumption that answering questions demonstrates an understanding of site policy, when the opposite is often true: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/357021 )

> my idea that the question is meaningful, or if it will be marked as a duplicate to some similar issue

Duplicates are not inherently bad. They help others find the original, and the duplicate count statistics help identify important questions and topics. Furthermore, it's 100% in keeping with policy to close something as a duplicate of a newer question (https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/404535 https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/258697 ). If you ask something well, and get a good answer, and then someone notices that it was asked before, your version is likely to stand instead. (And the target for a duplicate closure must have an accepted or upvoted answer.)

Re: Stack Overflow is almost dead

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you ask for a subject expert's help and simultaneously insist that you know better than the expert whether your question is a duplicate of another? this is easy part, I read the answer of that “duplicate” and it was not applicable to my problem :)

> I read the answer of that “duplicate” and it was not applicable to my problem You are supposed to have a question in the first place, not just a problem. (In fact, you are not required to have had anything go wrong with your code, nor to need to know how to do something, in order to ask a question. You only need to ask a question that meets standards.) If something was wrong with your code, and using Stack Overflow…

The question is the problem, if I did not have a problem I wouldn’t be reaching out to a site named StackOverflow (one of the many problems I encountered over the years…). The problem is not just broken code, the problem is many different things like “how do I …?” or “I am trying to figure out how to …?” which is not about the broken code.
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