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In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

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Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#221

Post by disambiguation »

tacitusarc wrote: post #199
disambiguation wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person I replied to claims their work based social interactions are totally utilitarian and transactional - very Patrick Bateman. Should work be fun? Of course, in fact every part of life should be good and fun for everyone all the time, yes? But realistically, I wouldn't have any fun working with this guy. If other peoples "mediocrity" is spoiling the "fun" for you, then you should consider building your own fun…

The quotations feel unnecessarily petty. Do you enjoy working with people who are incompetent? Is there anywhere you’d draw the line with regards to competence, at which point you’d rather not have to deal with them?

Apologies for coming across as heated and getting carried away - my intent was not to convey pettiness, but rather highlight how those notions are highly subjective. Everyone has their own idea of what's fun and what's competent.

In the context of the original reply, I dislike it when colleagues are so ideologically intense and rigid about work because it puts me on the defensive; I have to impress them on whatever made up criteria they have. Maybe they think they're being right and fair, but I didn't ask to be judged, and more often than not their attitude is really just an ego trip - picking on the flaws of others rather than self reflecting. It's easiest to deal with these types by flattering their egos and staying out of their way; they'll eventually "fly to close to the sun."

In terms of working with incompetent people, I don't view it as binary, or even linear. When referring to incompetence what's usually meant is someone who is unmotivated or unknowledgable, but they don't take personal responsibility for helping them and investing in the team as a whole. I have never felt at the mercy of an incompetent colleague, there is always a path forward. Any perceived hindrance or drag is just that: perspective. And as a dev, it's just not my problem. It's up to management to decide what's an acceptable level of productivity and drag. That said, while I don't think I'm seen as incompetent, I'm not a rock star either or work on a rock star team. I can see this being more pertienent to someone in that kind of environment. For myself, I subscribe to the David Graeber philosophy, that a lot of our industry is "bullshit" jobs. It's hard to care about competence when the work doesn't really matter in the first place. Regardless, the word incompetent just isn't part of my vocabulary, it only facilitates complaining and doesn't serve a productive purpose.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#222

Post by rewgs »

dogleash wrote: post #32
hobs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, this is the most toxic thing about job interviews for me - "hey can we do the thing where you pretend you didn't have a string of shitty jobs for 5 years? because obviously you were at fault if they were shitty." Most jobs are pretty shitty, the idea that you need to demonstrate toxic positivity about how shitty it was is just so inauthentic.

>is just so inauthentic I agree and resent that work is just a place where I go to get lied to and lie right back. We've found that lying is a highly successful workplace strategy. But the point of the lying game is to never admit we're lying. The pretzels people will twist themselves in to avoid the cognitive dissonance of lying all the time and not wanting to be a lair is maddening. I find facing it head on is a re…

Thank you. I very simply cannot and will not "play the game." I refuse to lay down and accept that the majority of my day's interactions will be laced with bullshit. Every time I have, my spirit has plummeted to dangerous lows; every time I've fought against it, even if it's worked against me (and it definitely has), the lift to my spirits has carried me to a better place.

Rather than giving in to it, I've taken it as a signal that something needs to change -- I'm surrounded by the wrong people, in a business with bad market fit (a root cause of this kind of toxic culture that isn't talked about enough IMO), etc. Sometimes a good place has just rotted. Like entropy, I don't think this sort of thing can be reversed once it's set in.

I recently interviewed with a great company full of great folks, and I was given the chance to frankly but firmly (and slightly humorously in a gallows humor sort of way) state precisely why I was leaving my last company; in fact, I used it as part of the interview where I interview them. This section of the interview went well, because as far as I could tell, these people are smart, down-to-earth, no bullshit, and appreciate living in the truth. They're a small company, so people can't hide behind bullshit as easily. I much prefer that.

The cognitive dissonance displayed all over this thread and tendency to hand-wave it away by painting anything that isn't playing along as not understanding social cues, lacking tact, etc, makes me sick. The whole culture is childish, literally -- it reeks of the particular brand of lack of accountability, tendency to gaslight, and so on that is displayed by children. When coming out of a 4-year-old's mouth, it's easy to disarm and work around and excuse, almost cute in its ineffectiveness; when coming out of a company, as a matter of policy, it's authoritarian and frightening.

I really, really can't stand it. The good people are out there, however.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#223

Post by hermitShell »

reillyse wrote: post #194
vladgur wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one that finds nothing positive about the term “rock star” in when applied to people you work with? I want to work with smart and accommodating individuals who are team players. None of these qualities are what we expect of rock stars. When I hear “rock star” - I fear a cult of one.

You are 100% correct, nobody wants to work with a "rock star" on a team. When I hear "rock star" I think diva. The best teams are made up of a group of competent people who get on with each other and do great work together - not a team where one or more people are god's gift and the others are subordinates. That kind of scenario doesn't last too long.

Very much agree, I first encountered the idea of an engineering team ‘diva’ or ‘prima donna’ on the zipcpu blog. The archetype immediately resonated with me because I could see it in myself and in others, especially the high potential, high talent people. Fortunately I work for a team full of high performers and I can learn a lot from them and get along just fine, because above all we are kind to one another. We also happen to kick ass and ship systems but it’s a lot more fun to do it with a team you can genuinely like working for. I am the team lead but all the important results come from ICs so I work for them, really.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#224

Post by sh34r »

alphazard wrote: post #57

In software, often the people are the source of stress. Building the software is easy to many in this industry, and the vast majority of the value produced came from someone who thought creating it was easy. Being surrounded by rock stars all doing something they find easy is sublime, and I encourage everyone to seek out those environments. They exist and are fleeting. The stress comes from people who are bad at what…

I couldn't disagree more. I try to avoid people like you like the plague. You're never as good as you think you are, and any additional skill you might provide is negated by how much you drag the rest of the team down.

I'm happy to provide leadership to help those who are less capable, but willing to learn, and are actually nice people.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#225

Post by sh34r »

mrsilencedogood wrote: post #105
barbazoo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stress comes from people who are bad at what they do and are trying to make it someone else's problem. They don't have vision for how they will accomplish what is asked of them. In their imagination, there is not a clear set of steps that can be burned down over the coming days and weeks to arrive at something of value. In their minds it is all chaos and uncertainty and they are desperate for the assurance of s…

Well of course it's more complicated. But these 2 broad strokes do resonate with me as a meaningful bucketing. There are some people I see DMs from and go "ooh" and some people I see DMs from and go "well there goes my morning hand-holding them through something they should already both know and have internalized".

You're not protecting your time correctly if helping a colleague out wipes out your morning. Schedule a meeting and time-box the assistance. If it's not enough, schedule something else in a day or two. Teach the man how to fish and all that.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#226

Post by sh34r »

pm90 wrote: post #97
CGMthrowaway wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your choice. It's not a bad idea to answer "why are you leaving your current job" with "i'm looking for greater opportunities to [the opposite of why you are leaving your job]" and people can read between the lines AND have less of the concerns they would if you went guns blazing on the bridges behind you

You can be honest about why your previous employer wasn’t the right fit without burning bridges. I really dislike all of this “reading between the lines” aren’t Americans supposed to be direct?

From Philly to Boston, you got a lot of direct Americans, but the rest of the country? No, not really. West Coasters might be the most passive-aggressive people in the world.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#227

Post by sh34r »

int_19h wrote: post #173
pm90 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be honest about why your previous employer wasn’t the right fit without burning bridges. I really dislike all of this “reading between the lines” aren’t Americans supposed to be direct?

> I really dislike all of this “reading between the lines” aren’t Americans supposed to be direct? You're talking about a culture in which the standard greeting is "How are you?", and the standard response to said greeting is, "I'm fine!" - even when you're obviously not fine . So, no, it's very much not direct. If you want to see what a "direct" software engineering culture looks like, look at Eastern Europe. There,…

Eastern Europeans and Israelis are so refreshing to work with.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#228

Post by sh34r »

watwut wrote: post #46
cj wrote: post #3

Similarly, once you’re looking for a new job, assuming you’re looking for roles with the same job title you had before, do everything you can to paint your previous job in a positive light even if it was miserable. If you don’t, interviewers are left wondering how to interpret your dissatisfaction at your previous job.

Newsflash, people looking for a job were either fired or unhappy about something. The insistence on hearing only pleasurable falsehoods is not healthy.

And that's definitely an inclusive-or, too.

On the other hand, managers are usually hiring because they failed to do their job competently with the last person in this role.

Brand-new positions are exceedingly rare these days. The market is worse than it's ever been for SWE. There was likely someone they laid off who could have filled it if management wasn't completely incompetent.

This isn't a growth market at the moment. It's a zero-sum game. Everyone's trying to screw each other over as much as possible, and they're lying through their teeth and pretending like it's not. Nobody on either side is sifting through this torrent of AI slop by choice.

Re: In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

#229

Post by haswell »

franktankbank wrote: post #219
haswell wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying something negative isn't inherently toxic. But saying something negative in a job interview is walking a line. Everyone everywhere has experienced negative factors in a prior job, so it's not exactly a revelation if someone has some war stories. But what a person chooses to focus on does say something about how that person thinks. If I ask someone what they dislike about their previous job, and they say someth…

I think I get it. 1) Stick to the prompt 2) Don't rant negatively without a clear point that might be appreciated for the given position Is that fair? Anything else? Thanks for expounding.

I think that’s a fair summary.
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