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The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

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Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#221

Post by thaumasiotes »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #180
godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

Just anecdotally based on my 2000something kid high school, the copious amount of tiering of math classes seemed to indicate to me that either we're really bad at teaching math to 80% of people, or only 20% of people will be able to handle precalculus. We had basically 4 tracks: one ended with you doing algebra 1 in senior year, another ended with you doing trig in sr year, yet another that ended with trig (no precal…

I went to a small high school; my graduating class was around 30 people.

Math classes weren't separated by grade. So, I took Algebra 2 in 8th grade alongside a cross section of the school; there was one other 8th grader, two seniors, and a selection of people in between.

There was no path to take the AP Calculus AB. Trig / Calc A was offered as two semesters, and then Calc B / Calc C was offered as two more semesters, after which you'd take the BC test. There was also no such thing as "precalculus". Trig followed Algebra II.

In my Calc C class, there were probably 8ish people, of which one or two (besides me) would have been in my grade.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#223

Post by godelski »

xmprt wrote: post #139
godelski wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations Coding IS math. Not "coding uses math", I mean it is math. Mathematicians do not deal in objects, but in relations among objects; they are free to replace some object by others so long as the relations remain unchanged. Content to them is irrelevant; they are interested in form only. - Poincare[0] I don't know how you code, b…

By that same logic you could also say that language is math. In fact I think your quote kind of disproves your point because the content/state of a program is super important in coding more than the form. Coding used to be very close to pure math (many early computer science classes were taught in the Math Department in universities) but it has been so far abstracted from that to the point that it is its own thing an…

  > By that same logic you could also say that language is math
Not quite, but the inverse is true. The language to math direction doesn't work because a lack of formalism. I can state incomprehensible sentences or words. (There's an advantage to that in some cases!) but when you do that with code you get errors and even you do it with math its just that there's no compiler or interpreter that tells at you

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#224

Post by hirvi74 »

tetha wrote: post #105
zahlman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whereas programming has more “small steps”: even someone who’s not smart (but has grit) can write an impressive program, if they write one component at a time and there aren’t too many components that rely on each other. ... In my experience, learning to write one component at a time (and try the code, and make sure it works before proceeding) is itself a skill that many struggle to develop. Similarly for avoiding…

I dislike "everyone can learn to program" because it conflates many, many levels of skills and expertise. I very much think many people could learn the more advanced Excel Formulas, Power Automate and even simple Bash/PowerShell scripting to make their work more effective. I've met quite a few folks who had been intimidated out of trying who could do it. On the other hand, how many people on this site could bootstrap…

> "everyone can learn to program"

> That doesn't mean everyone is qualified to pour concrete for a dam or a bridge foundation, or to re-do some historical work in original style.

Exactly!

I think statements like that are more concerned with philosophy than reality. Any discussion surrounding topics like this typically ends up being a discussion around definitions.

I believe the vast majority of human beings are capable of learning how to program in the most extreme elementary sense of the word. As in, outside of severe disabilities or complete and utter inaccessibility to circumstances in which one could learn program, then I think the remaining population of people could learn to program to some degree. Obviously, not everyone will learn to program due to a near infinite number of reasons.

I would argue it's like music. Anyone can make 'music.' Just make a sound -- any sound. The difference between noise and music is subjective. I would not argue that everyone could be the next Lovelace, Turning, Ritchie, Thompson, Torvalds, etc..

Now, for my jaded opinion, I think a lot of the "everyone can learn to program" talk does not come from a place of desire to share the gift of knowledge and joy of programming. I think it's more of a subtle way to encourage people to go into programming so that they may be hired by mega corps. In order to keep the Capitalist machine running. It's like the National Hockey League's slogan, "Hockey is for everyone." That is just a fancy way of saying, "everyone's money can be spent on the NHL."

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#225

Post by jackcosgrove »

I had to scroll through most of the paper to find this.

> All participants were right-handed native English speakers with no exposure to a second natural language before the age of 6 years

Which removes a confounder that Python mimics English syntax.

Still if this is a typical study recruiting thirty-some undergrads as subjects it's probably not generalizable, or even replicable given the same experimental setup.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#226

Post by vlovich123 »

Counter example: I can pick up any new programming language within 3-6 months and be proficient but it takes a year to pick up some minor fluency in a human language and I still have yet to obtain full fluency in any other language as an adult.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#227

Post by owl_vision »

armchairhacker wrote: post #40

Good code doesn’t just solve a problem, it solves it in a way that’s readable and modular. I think the problem-solving part of coding requires math skills, while the organization part requires writing skills. The organization part affects the problem-solving part, because if you write messy code (that you can’t reread once you forget or extend without rewriting) you’ll quickly get overwhelmed. Writing large math proo…

+1. Excellent description of how the skills relate. I often read, listen to poetry when stuck in a math or programming problem. ... or just talk to the rubber duck. :-)

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#228

Post by dayvigo »

godelski wrote: post #126
QuercusMax wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations. I'm much more likely to spend my time studying DB and interface schemas to understand how something works than doing a lot of mathy fiddling. Sure, some people write game engines and such, but even much of 3D graphics doesn't need anything more complicated than the first half of a linear algebra course.

> Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations Coding IS math. Not "coding uses math", I mean it is math. Mathematicians do not deal in objects, but in relations among objects; they are free to replace some object by others so long as the relations remain unchanged. Content to them is irrelevant; they are interested in form only. - Poincare[0] I don't know how you code, b…

Sure, lambda calculus is math. To call assembly or typical imperative C math, at least in the same sense, is a bit of a stretch.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#229

Post by nielsbot »

vlovich123 wrote: post #226

Counter example: I can pick up any new programming language within 3-6 months and be proficient but it takes a year to pick up some minor fluency in a human language and I still have yet to obtain full fluency in any other language as an adult.

I suspect, however, that a programming language is a much more limited domain than a human language.

I often tell people it's not that learning a language is hard, is learning that language's software library... and learning a software library doesn't feel like learning a language. More like learning a set of tools.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#230

Post by godelski »

analog31 wrote: post #136
godelski wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations Coding IS math. Not "coding uses math", I mean it is math. Mathematicians do not deal in objects, but in relations among objects; they are free to replace some object by others so long as the relations remain unchanged. Content to them is irrelevant; they are interested in form only. - Poincare[0] I don't know how you code, b…

But that doesnt necessarily mean successful programmers are good at conventional math. This is why certain people in the department are identified as "math people".

I'm not sure why you'd think I disagree. It seems you understood I argued that it's unhelpful to make the distinction between math and "conventional" math

But I'll refer you to a longer conversation if it helps https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43872687

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