The Brief Origins of May Day • Hacker News Board

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#221

Post by dang » Thu, May 01, 2025, 6:50 PM UTC

p_j_w wrote: post #192

constantcrying wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the IGM and of course it isn't their public position, but it is clear that this is what they think and how they behave. They also are extremely influential in my company, as part of the Betriebsrat, and try to steer it in that direction. I recently had to deal with them (as part of the Betriebsrat) and, just as human beings, they seemed to be some of the worst people I ever met.

[flagged]

Please don't cross into personal attack, regardless of how bad a comment is or you feel it is.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(btw just in case this response feels one-sided, we've already asked the parent twice to stop breaking the site guidelines, so I'm not going to pile on here with a third)

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#222

Post by 9rx » Thu, May 01, 2025, 6:50 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #220

9rx wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all pretty sure of that. How did you come to conclude that others might have thought differently?

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

What do you mean by flamewar? The dictionary defines it as "an online dispute or argument characterized by heated, angry, and often abusive exchanges between multiple participants.", which is in line with my understanding, but that isn't applicable here, so I am unsure how to interpret it. Further, the link states that the site is for "Anything that good hackers would find interesting.", which is what the question poses. The answer is something that would be found interesting – that is why it was asked, after all – so it seems the use is perfectly in line with expectations.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#223

Post by dang » Thu, May 01, 2025, 7:03 PM UTC

9rx wrote: post #222

dang wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

What do you mean by flamewar? The dictionary defines it as "an online dispute or argument characterized by heated, angry, and often abusive exchanges between multiple participants." , which is in line with my understanding, but that isn't applicable here, so I am unsure how to interpret it. Further, the link states that the site is for "Anything that good hackers would find interesting." , which is what the question…

I'm fine with that definition.

"We're all pretty sure of that. Where did you dream up this straw man?" is just the kind of provocation that produces that kind of discussion, though.

One thing to keep in mind is that most of us underestimate the provocation in our own posts (let's say by 10x) and overestimate the provocation in others' posts (let's say by another 10x) and that leads to quite a skew in perception [1]. I believe this is why everyone always feels like the other person started it / did worse [2]. Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear! [3]

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#224

Post by 9rx » Thu, May 01, 2025, 7:06 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #223

9rx wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by flamewar? The dictionary defines it as "an online dispute or argument characterized by heated, angry, and often abusive exchanges between multiple participants." , which is in line with my understanding, but that isn't applicable here, so I am unsure how to interpret it. Further, the link states that the site is for "Anything that good hackers would find interesting." , which is what the question…

I'm fine with that definition. "We're all pretty sure of that. Where did you dream up this straw man?" is just the kind of provocation that produces that kind of discussion, though. One thing to keep in mind is that most of us underestimate the provocation in our own posts (let's say by 10x) and overestimate the provocation in others' posts (let's say by another 10x) and that leads to quite a skew in perception [1].…

Interesting. Not how I would interpret it, but I understand that communication is hard. I have edited in a hopefully successful effort to more accurately convey the question.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#225

Post by dang » Thu, May 01, 2025, 7:13 PM UTC

9rx wrote: post #224

dang wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with that definition. "We're all pretty sure of that. Where did you dream up this straw man?" is just the kind of provocation that produces that kind of discussion, though. One thing to keep in mind is that most of us underestimate the provocation in our own posts (let's say by 10x) and overestimate the provocation in others' posts (let's say by another 10x) and that leads to quite a skew in perception [1].…

Interesting. Not how I would interpret it, but I understand that communication is hard. I have edited in a hopefully successful effort to more accurately convey the question.

Ok, that works! And I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#226

Post by unionthrowaway » Thu, May 01, 2025, 7:29 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #178

throw0101a wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes solidarity between workers possible is the homogeneity of their labour. Ethan Hunt play by Tom Cruise and Waitress #2 played by Jane Doe aren't very homogeneous with regards to pay and fame, but they're both part of SAG.

Doesn’t the “G” in SAG stand for “Guild?” A guild is different from a union, right? It is more like a bunch of independent contractors making connections or something like that.

This exact exchange (Unions are great for fungible labor but computer programming isn't like that / But Hollywood A-list actors are unionized and they're the polar opposite of fungible labor / Oh but SAG is a Guild not a Union) plays out in every HN thread I've seen which mentions unions.

As a union member (not SAG-AFTRA), I find this curious. SAG-AFTRA is a Union. They have a cool name but, like many other groups with Guild in their name, they are recognized by the NLRB as a Union. There's no special classification for Guild, at least in America.

When you look at Wikipedia's list of largest unions in the US, only 2 of the top 10 have Union in their name, but that doesn't mean the other 8 aren't actually Unions. Or that the ones with Brotherhood in their name don't allow women, or any other silly extrapolation one wants to concoct. It's just a name.

We're not in the 13th century any more. There is no longer any functional difference between Guild and Union. Of the alleged benefits of Guilds enumerated in HN threads (vetting and certification of members, continuing education, ability to be paid above scale, etc), literally every single one is already offered by unions today. And if you thought of a new one that wasn't, you could bring it up at your next union meeting and vote on it.

It's frustrating to read discussions of unions by online commenters who have never been union members or paid dues, never read a union contract, never attended a union meeting or voted with their coworkers, never worked similar jobs in both union and non-union workplaces. It's like a bunch of people who have never lived in a free society arguing over whether they should form a Democracy or a Republic, by picking countries with these words in their names, and selecting attributes of those countries they do or don't want to emulate. That's not how it works.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#227

Post by DrillShopper » Thu, May 01, 2025, 7:35 PM UTC

SirFatty wrote: post #23

DrillShopper wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of tech workers I know come from comfortable middle class suburban backgrounds, so I'm not surprised they're anti-union and anti-labor.

A lot of "comfortable middle class suburban" folks I know are in the trades. Hardly anti-union with that group.

I know plenty of people in the trades that are anti-union - they're typically the ones in the "comfortable middle class suburban" category. They've worked a bit and maybe are contractors of their own. They complain about how much it costs to have a union crew and about how slow the work gets done. They do not think workers need more protections (look at Florida and other states prohibiting mandatory water breaks for worker protection), and actively complain about needing to carry Worker's Comp insurance and withhold taxes (which is why many of them pay under the table for non-union work, undocumented day laborers outside of Home Depot/Lowes seem to be their favorite choices).

In fact they tend to be some of the most anti-union, anti-labor folks I know.

I will grant that not every single person in the "comfortable middle class suburban" category is anti-union / anti-labor, but it's a pattern I see often enough that it is worth remarking on.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#228

Post by bee_rider » Thu, May 01, 2025, 7:42 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #218

reillyse wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think the "middle class" idea is just a fallacy. It feels like it's used by people to distance themselves from "working class" because they feel that working class is somehow beneath them. All of the middle class in todays parlance are just slightly more affluent working class. If you sell your time for money you are working class. If you make money from having money you are bourgeoisie. If you have to thi…

> I honestly think the "middle class" idea is just a fallacy. One definition I found reasonable was that it it "starts" with those that can meet their basic necessities (housing, food, transportation, healthcare) and still have funds left over for discretionary spending: * https://ofdollarsanddata.com/the-biggest-lie-in-personal-fin... Where it "ends" at top-end is perhaps more arbitrary (not Top 10%? 20%? 1%?).

I don’t like this definition as much because it includes most people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck with minimal leisure expenditure, right?

Like if you by groceries, rent an apartment, have a bus pass, qualify for Medicare, and you have a Netflix account or get fast food (discretionary spending), then you seem to be middle class by this definition. Is that right? Maybe Medicare bumps you out. But ok, you can get the cheapest marketplace plan.

I mean, to be below middle class by this definition your expenses have to exactly match your revenue, or you are living beyond your means. So other than some tiny slice (in some perimeter vs area sense) of the populace, being working class seems to be definitionally unsustainable.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#229

Post by TimTheTinker » Thu, May 01, 2025, 8:42 PM UTC

I think modern people in the West, and especially people who are against communism, may not realize that Marx's ideas took hold so forcefully because they seemed to provide a way for everyday workers to fight back against the working conditions that arose following the industrial revolution. (Charles Dickens's novels provide a lot of detail from the perspective of the working class.)

One example: in retrospect, the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia resulted in much death and starvation. But the people of Russia in the 1920s were fed up with the working conditions and effective two-lane legal state in Russia (i.e. the law bound poor people and protected rich people) that had existed for hundreds of years under the Tsars.

As far as I can tell, rule of law is always the best answer to injustice - a law that reflects the will of the people, binds all equally, and protects all equally. But when injustice has persisted for a while, people can be vulnerable to ideologues and ideologies that can take advantage of the situation, create a new ruling class, and cause an overcorrection.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#230

Post by BeFlatXIII » Thu, May 01, 2025, 8:45 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #82

parpfish wrote: post #16

Why don’t labor issues resonate more with tech workers? I know that we’re not a monolith and are actually a heterogeneous mix of opinions, but there frequently talk about job dissatisfaction (career burnout, comically stingy equity grants, etc). But when organizing comes up, it’s usually treated with disdain because so many have bought into highly individualistic hustle-culture and the narrative that unions only exis…

I’ve been a manager in tech for the last 11 years full-time Prior to that I was a military commander as a Major in the United States Air Force Before joining the AF I had jobs in construction, freelance web design and car stereo installation in high school The singular difference is the personality of tech workers is “I can do this faster and easier by myself - I have no desire to communicate with other people” It se…

> have neither of the interest nor the belief that the organization is valuable in of itself as the organization and they are way more excited to jump companies in order to promote themselves because that is how they are incentivized and are happy to find themselves in that position.

This will continue to remain true so long as expected pay bumps for job-hopping outpace loyalty raises.