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The Burnout Machine

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#221

Post by echelon »

jacobgkau wrote: post #194
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

My initial reaction to this whole thing was the same as yours (not that I have any love lost for academics). Software engineers do basically no physical labor and usually get paid better than many people who physically work way harder. On the whole, software engineers are not "the victim," as you said. However, your examples made me think. > In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better…

> I also think using the "it could be worse" excuse to avoid working for better conditions that are totally feasible isn't a great thing to do.

Unions fuck up the incentives. Tenured positions are coveted and come with privileges that make the job easier and the position more cushy. New hires want those perks and will rest once they attain them. This is the opposite of what you want in a workforce: you want the top 50% to work hard and fight for raises and promotions.

In our industry, when we don't get the promotions or raises we want, we switch jobs. Job switching has been an incredible means of advancing our careers and being exposed to new tech and new problems. Because of tenure and different jobs using different unions, unions will lead to fewer job changes and more "lifers" that stick around at a single job for a long time. That ossifies code, stops the influx of new ideas and talent, and causes super weird code / business unit ownership drama. It's also super boring.

Tech companies aren't afraid of high salaries (evidently so!) as much as they are of non-fungibility and ossification of the workforce. Unions make slow businesses even slower. Because of this, unions lead to offshoring.

Unions have ground so many industries to a halt in the US. Manufacturing, automotive. Most recently, the film industry (particularly crew) have been offshored -- in the last several years productions have moved to Eastern Europe and Asia sans any US workforce. They fly the cast (without crew) out for the shoots. It's all because of unions.

If we wish this upon ourselves -- in one of the cushiest careers in the world -- we'll soon find all of our jobs moving overseas.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#222

Post by nchmy »

ActorNightly wrote: post #166
legitster wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels it lacks perspective with virtually any other occupations. On one hand, misery and happiness are relative. On the other hand, try telling a construction worker how hard our lives are sitting in chairs clicking buttons. My dad used to have to do things like hot tar roofing to pay the bills. So I still consider it a blessing to get to work in software. I thi…

>I think one thing that needs to be understood better is the concept of "burnout". I can explain it pretty well. You can classify pretty much all jobs into 2 categories - map lookups and reasoning. A map lookup job is something where you learn to associate a specific problem with a solution. Most jobs are like this. You go work in construction, its pretty much map lookup - supervisor tells you to go prep the concrete…

Its an interesting analogy, but that ain't it.

Ive been burned out and am VERY good at reasoning. In fact, my burnout was largely because my role went from relatively undisturbed reasoning most of the time with long, but not extreme hours, to extreme hours where I was actively punished for reasoning - all while being micromanaged and pulled in many directions.

And yet, if I had found the new role to be meaningful and, moreover, with and for decent people (rather than a psychopath), I could totally have done all of that.

Burnout comes from when your life has no meaning and, worse, your attempts to find/create meaning are prevented (or worse).

"Those who have a why to live can endure almost any how"

Re: The Burnout Machine

#223

Post by wincy »

mproud wrote: post #136

Maybe this isn’t an article designed for “me”, but there is a sizable workforce of people who aren’t getting paid super high salaries for super high responsibilities. I’m talking about the hourly tech employee. The customer support call center agent. The HVAC technician. The on-the-go consultant. Yes, it’s not glamorous, but it’s reliable, it not stressful, and it still has good benefits.

I’m salary software engineer lead and I work past five maybe two or three times a year. If I need my boss I have to call him after hours. There’s plenty of dev jobs that aren’t stressful.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#224

Post by guelo »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

I've notice that many engineers that have been inside cushy corporations for a while don't realize the bloodbath that is happening outside their corporate walls in the job markets. But your CEO definitely realizes it and they are tightening the screws because they haven't had this much power over employees in a long time. They're coming for you too sooner or later.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#225

Post by snozolli »

jacobgkau wrote: post #194
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

My initial reaction to this whole thing was the same as yours (not that I have any love lost for academics). Software engineers do basically no physical labor and usually get paid better than many people who physically work way harder. On the whole, software engineers are not "the victim," as you said. However, your examples made me think. > In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better…

Software engineers do basically no physical labor

I developed debilitating tendinitis in both wrists right about the time I graduated college. A decade later, I developed a bulged disc in my neck that ended my career.

There are very real risks to your body from sitting at a computer, deep in thought all day. There's a whole other swath of health issues, too, beside injury risks.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#226

Post by chasd00 »

bawolff wrote: post #199
stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

> Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" Is it though? People in software seem to be constantly talking about burnout/mental health issues. Like we need some explanation as to why software has such high pay, flexibility, limited education requirements, and yet not everyone in the world is doing it. High pay is usually a sign the job is compensating for being shitty in other ways.

One thing about software dev is it’s hard to do very well but pretty easy to do good enough. It’s when good enough becomes no longer acceptable all of a sudden that the job gets very hard and people get burned. That’s not always fair though. Another interesting part of software dev is expectations change radically. I’m not in construction but I don’t think a developer can ask a construction team to build a skyscraper in 6 months vs a year or be fired and be taken serious but in software dev that happens all the time.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#227

Post by sureglymop »

maxrmk wrote: post #208

I feel very fortunate to have worked other jobs before my first in tech. My last was hanging drywall and I will never forget how awful it was. I haven’t loved every part of every tech job I’ve worked, but I’ve always chosen to be there. I think the author is missing perspective on what the alternatives are like, and seems to have a lack of agency when they say things like: > How many of us have been forced to work on…

I think it makes sense when you look at it specifically with the "burnout" context in mind. The truth is, burnout can happen to anyone and it is often unclear whether there even is any real recovery.

And it can even happen not just necessarily due to overwork but due to lack of a clear goal, death by a thousand papercuts, complete riddance of passion and interest for certain reasons.

Sure it's nicer to work from your desk than to hang drywall but if you do end up burning out that will affect your brain and possibly permanently alter it. After that, who knows if you could even work in the industry at all anymore?

Personally I believe we way way underestimate it. Longevity is more important than exploiting the passion and overmotivation of potential burnout candidates for short term gains.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#228

Post by echelon »

snozolli wrote: post #225
jacobgkau wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My initial reaction to this whole thing was the same as yours (not that I have any love lost for academics). Software engineers do basically no physical labor and usually get paid better than many people who physically work way harder. On the whole, software engineers are not "the victim," as you said. However, your examples made me think. > In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better…

Software engineers do basically no physical labor I developed debilitating tendinitis in both wrists right about the time I graduated college. A decade later, I developed a bulged disc in my neck that ended my career. There are very real risks to your body from sitting at a computer, deep in thought all day. There's a whole other swath of health issues, too, beside injury risks.

How does a union help you with your wrists?

Why do you need help?

I type every single day and I don't want your health problem placing limits on my job flexibility and career advancement.

If our industry fills with unions, suddenly I won't be able to job hop to positions that look interesting to me. I'll have to consider things like seniority and tenure and a bunch of artificial rules. It'll be like going back to high school. I prefer to break rules, color outside the lines, and set my own path.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#229

Post by JimTheMan »

Capricorn2481 wrote: post #203
JimTheMan wrote: post #134

These articles about work conditions in tech feel profoundly out of touch with the rest of the world. It's like reading a gazette from Mary Antoinette talking about how tough her life was (pre-revolution..) The rest of the world outside of tech, looks at tech and sees a bunch of very overpaid developers with quite cushy perks... Like sure, it would be great to unionise... But if tech workers don't acknowledge their p…

> But if tech workers don't acknowledge their privelege, they shouldn't be shocked when no-one else turnsout to support them It's hard not to read your comment as anything but virtue signaling, and doing so in a way that makes everyone worse off. You seem to think being a part of a union means you think you have a bad job and everyone should pay special attention to you. Forming a union does not mean you are asking f…

Virtue signalling, not at all.

I work as an regular engineer in construction and I have a very cushy job compared to the boots on the ground working in the mud. I am conveying what I and everyone else thinks about tech working conditions.

Also not against unions, I have to work with unions in my day to day.

Yeah, when people choose to write an article about 'how bad they have it', don't expect sympathy from anyone else if you 'don't have it that bad'. Christ, you all get paid 3 x plus the median salary... Go work a job with better conditions that pays less! Or use your incredible market power to move to a place that does have better conditions (which you all have seem to done anyway!)

Unionise for gods sake, but jeez it would help if some of you had to scrape a little in your past prior.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#230

Post by [deleted] »

wyager wrote: post #70
philjohn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not demanding per se, but when you're stack ranked against people who ARE ...

A lot of these pro-labor-reg people argue (and I agree with them!) that the ROI on additional hours worked past 40 is pretty bad. If this is the case, then someone working an extra N hours a week won't actually move the needle that much when it comes to performance ranking. My experience has been that the people who choose to work super long hours do not actually perform much better, if at all, than those who don't.…

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