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Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

theintercept.com

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Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#221

Post by chakintosh »

bawolff wrote: post #193

Am i weird in that this feels kind of normal (im not american)? Protests should be protected, but i normally assume protestors get permits, and a reasonable police presence is around. Not to intimidate anyone, but just to make sure nobody gets too rowdy, keep protestors and counter-protestors away from each other (to prevent violence), provide aid if anyone gets hurt (big masses of people is always a trample risk). O…

> but i normally assume protestors get permits,

Good luck obtaining a permit for a Gaza protest from people in Israel's payroll.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#222

Post by j4coh »

kristjansson wrote: post #210
j4coh wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direction matters, though as the answer to a different question than whether rate of committing crimes is uniform. We are in this sub thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43393070

> whether rate of committing crimes is uniform The above linked data show self-reported cannabis use within +/- 10% over the relevant pre-legalization period (before 2012), if anything with a slight advantage to whites. Drug arrest and incarceration rates vary by much, much more ( factors of 2-6 between whites and blacks). Against that, use rates of 15 vs 13ish vs 12.5ish are as good as uniform , esp. on a survey wit…

The quibble was that

> Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate

.. is not actually true, so better not to claim it as part of a strong argument.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#223

Post by chneu »

mattigames wrote: post #217
kazinator wrote: post #211

So let's get this straight. People are tweeting that they're going to protest somewhere. But when cops see these tweets, that "surveillance".

That's an oversimplification, it's when cops start keeping track on people based on such data, plus analyzing their behavior as a group.

Is it though? People are willfully submitting all this information to American companies that we know share info with police.

When cops start using geolocation data that isn't enabled I'll be more worried.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#224

Post by chneu »

bjoli wrote: post #208
imperfect_light wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police in my city go to pretty much every protest and take video and photos (with big zoom lens) from the roofs of nearby buildings. It's always surprising to me that more people don't notice.

I am pretty sure this would be a crime in my home country. There are court cases cementing that anything except superficial photography/filming by law enforcement lacks any kind of support in law. There are even laws restricting use of photography in situations when exercising any coercive measures ("tvångsåtgärd").

The USA is pretty behind in personal rights. Americans love to shout about freedom but don't realize how many rights we don't have that other countries do. Especially after 9-11 when we signed away a ton of rights.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#225

Post by diegolas »

bawolff wrote: post #193

Am i weird in that this feels kind of normal (im not american)? Protests should be protected, but i normally assume protestors get permits, and a reasonable police presence is around. Not to intimidate anyone, but just to make sure nobody gets too rowdy, keep protestors and counter-protestors away from each other (to prevent violence), provide aid if anyone gets hurt (big masses of people is always a trample risk). O…

> but i normally assume protestors get permits

can't help but find this hilarious (also not american either)

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#226

Post by octopoc »

dotancohen wrote: post #212
whatshisface wrote: post #63

Here's an interesting thought about how preferential surveillance can lead to repression even when it's public and not itself acted on: 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate (things like parking violations and music piracy). 2. However, people who are being watched will be caught more often. 3. The end result is that people in the "wrong" crowd on average are punished mo…

> Here's an interesting thought about how preferential surveillance can lead to repression even when it's public and not itself acted on: > 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate (things like parking violations and music piracy). > 2. However, people who are being watched will be caught more often. > 3. The end result is that people in the "wrong" crowd on average are pun…

Dude. Israel is committing genocide. Your persecution complex is making you blind. Put yourself in your neighbor’s shoes, please.

Do this not just to be a descent human being—do this for the sake of your own survival. What will happen when Israel has made every nation hate it more than ever, and the US finally cuts the purse strings?

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#227

Post by dotancohen »

octopoc wrote: post #226
dotancohen wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's an interesting thought about how preferential surveillance can lead to repression even when it's public and not itself acted on: > 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at about the same rate (things like parking violations and music piracy). > 2. However, people who are being watched will be caught more often. > 3. The end result is that people in the "wrong" crowd on average are pun…

Dude. Israel is committing genocide . Your persecution complex is making you blind. Put yourself in your neighbor’s shoes, please. Do this not just to be a descent human being—do this for the sake of your own survival. What will happen when Israel has made every nation hate it more than ever, and the US finally cuts the purse strings?

Israel is not committing genocide. Not by any reputable definition of genocide. Israel is waging war against an enemy who in fact clearly states their intention to genocide the Jews.

You are correct to be angry about the amount of people dying in this war. But you should direct your anger to those responsible for both starting the war and for directly endangering those people.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#228

Post by lenerdenator »

chneu wrote: post #224
bjoli wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pretty sure this would be a crime in my home country. There are court cases cementing that anything except superficial photography/filming by law enforcement lacks any kind of support in law. There are even laws restricting use of photography in situations when exercising any coercive measures ("tvångsåtgärd").

The USA is pretty behind in personal rights. Americans love to shout about freedom but don't realize how many rights we don't have that other countries do. Especially after 9-11 when we signed away a ton of rights.

I'd say we're not too far away from par for the course, Western nations-wise, when it comes to civil liberties. At least for now. There are still things that you can do in the US (particularly related to speech) that are very different in Europe, for better or worse. Actually here of late it's been worse more than it's been better, but alas.

It's the whole "freedom to fail only applying to the layperson" thing that we're behind on.

EDIT:

Western nations/Common Law countries, I should specify.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#229

Post by rynohack »

bjoli wrote: post #213
jeffbee wrote: post #7

It is not "surveillance" when the cops see your tweets.

I think the idea of no expectation of privacy in public places crashes with the ever increasing capabilities of law enforcement and companies to register your activities and views. What is now registered with digital dragnets that can be queried at any time is what would require actual man-hours 50 years ago for just following one person.

That's basically the approach taken in Carpenter v. United States. The Supreme Court said, sure, the police could track people in public with dozens of cars and thousands of man hours, but using CLSI data means it can be done with a few mouse clicks.

You can't apply the "reasonable expectation of privacy" standard when you get into these new electronic forms of surveillance. It's become far too cheap and easy to surveil.

Not that I fully endorse their broaded view of privacy, I see it as much more of a fundamental right. That said, I was impressed that this court(who constantly misunderstands technology) understood this.

Re: Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests

#230

Post by lenerdenator »

mmooss wrote: post #111
lenerdenator wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do it more than you'd think. There're a ton of pictures of La Cosa Nostra members walking around in Brooklyn taken by FBI agents. They even made sure to get the good side of Casso and Gotti. Walking around and talking to each other? Constitutionally protected.

Very possibly those people were named subjects of active investigations for crimes; the protestors are not named (it's a dragnet), not subjects of investigations, and are suspected of no crimes.

> the protestors are not named (it's a dragnet), not subjects of investigations, and are suspected of no crimes.

That could very well be true, though there's also the possibility that there are people there who are subjects of investigations. The article doesn't really say; it just mentions that it's a possible threat to civil liberties. And to be fair, it very well can be, particularly in the hands of the current administration.

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