It's no accident that a roman emperor (tyrant, mass murderer, and courtier) is the premier famous stoic. Nor is it an accident that the next most famous case is that of British empire public schooling, british "stiff upper lip" stocisim. (EDIT: Marcus Aurelius) himself was no stoic philosopher, he merely wrote diaries to himself in his late days -- diaries he wanted burned, not published. And these were rehresals of…
Your perceptions of stoicism are so detatched from mine, I have to ask, what does stoicism mean to you? The wikipedia entry describes it like this: "The Stoics believed that the practice of virtue is enough to achieve eudaimonia: a well-lived life. The Stoics identified the path to achieving it with a life spent practicing the four cardinal virtues in everyday life — prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice — as…
Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
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Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you hit on it, but the total reason why is slightly different, and the key is in its trigger of your disgust mechanism: Conflict does not need philosophical reinforcement because it is a major biological default. Using our higher abilities to reinforce these prerequisite (but not higher/good) positions triggers disgust because it leads to traumatic outcomes. That is why disgust exists: to cause us to avoid ac…
I think cooperation is, by far, the most ordinary case. Oppressive, normative, cooperation. This may not seems so online, which is a very unusual environment -- but the vast majority of people are conflict-avoidant. You might say a war is conflict, but not really: the main mechanisms of war are cooperation. Very rarely are interpersonal situations prone to disagreement. The disgust here isn't about trauma, it's a hea…
I don’t disagree it is better to be emotionally transparent in many cases, but there are many cases where it isn’t, and where personal emotional responses can be counterproductive and/or misleading, producing their own sets of suboptimal outcomes.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#223"stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath (a claim Christianity borrowed from Stoicism)" This is obviously and patently false. Christianity recognizes that God has both an active and permissive will. So, while God actively wills the good, He does not actively will evil. This would make God evil, which is inco…
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#224There are no rational arguments or pathos appeals to assuage the greed and lust for power by the rich. They're too far gone and immovable, especially when they have the personality defects similar to malignant narcissism. They only respect strength.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Your description of how bitter and resentful they are is utterly bizarre, and bears no relation to the book that I read.
It would depend on the translation, and what you understood him to be doing. One of the ones I read recently was incredibly bastardized to seem more stoical, completely removing in cases his own asides. These are diaries he wanted burned -- they were just exercises in writing for himself to clam himself down. He is writing to himself . Go back and read a few sections and ask: "what happened to Marcus on this evening…
> > Are you ever going to achieve goodness? Ever going to be simple, whole, and naked—as plain to see as the body that contains you? Know what an affectionate and loving disposition would feel like? Ever be fulfilled, ever stop desiring—lusting and longing for people and things to enjoy? Or for more time to enjoy them? Or for some other place or country—“a more temperate clime”? Or for people easier to get along with? And instead be satisfied with what you have, and accept the present—all of it. And convince yourself that everything is the gift of the gods, ....
> I mean this is a deeply mournful person with an excess of self-admonishment.
To me this is just a person that's reflecting on how the state he desires is somewhat unobtainable. You could read it as admonishment if you really want to, but to me it's more noting that he has a goal he'll never obtain. It's a lot like buddhists reflecting on nirvana.
I think you're being unfair because these are translations, and a different culture. What he's writing doesn't particularly seem casual, but it doesn't reflect a person in deep despair as you seem to think. And even if he was like that inwardly, his outward actions were generally well regarded, so it's not like what he was doing was terrible. I just don't see how any of this reflects badly on stoicism or Marcus.
No offense, but given how you originally confused him for Mark Antony, I get the impression you're just trying to find any evidence that would characterize him in the way you want him to be characterized. I just don't think your summary of his personality really matches who the man actually was. He wasn't a tyrant, or someone deeply depressed. He was depressed occasionally, because he was human. And he probably had more downer entries than a normal person, because as an emperor he frequently had to make life and death decisions. I think he reflects a pretty healthy psyche.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#226"But on the negative side, stoicism’s Providential claim that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things which seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath (a claim Christianity borrowed from Stoicism) can be used to justify the idea that the rich and powerful are meant to be rich and powerful, that the poor and downtrodden are meant to be poor and downtrodden, and that even the worst actions ar…
> For one, that all bad things are actually good is not a tenet of Christianity and is not in the Bible. Surely you in your life you have met many Christians who said "God works in mysterious ways", "there is a purpose for everything", "trust in the Lord", etc.? In the Christian communities I grew up around, it was a pervasive idea that misfortune was explained away by our limited understanding. These cliches were al…
Yes, but this is something people say in times of grief, for the comfort of the grieving -- it's not a consistent moral philosophy that they hold to in other parts of their life, nor is it meant to be. There are better answers than this, but they are oftentimes much harder to process, and much more likely to accidentally pain the one who is grieving.
> It's arguably a necessary tenet for Christianity to hold together as a coherent belief system.
No, it's not. You're correct in that "you need some way to explain why bad things still happen", but we've come a long, long way from "stuff just happens". For example, the Catholic view is that suffering is A) not committed by, but permitted by, God; B) necessary for salvation and free will to coexist. In this view, evil is in essence a deviation from the will of God -- but free will must, in this conception, at the very least include the free will to choose to follow or choose to oppose God's own will. To quote St. Aquinas, paraphrasing St. Augustine: "Since God is the supremely highest good, he would not allow evil to exist in his creation unless he were so all powerful that he could even make good out of evil". More broadly, suffering is seen as having not only a redemptive but an edifying nature that can ultimately bring us closer to God.
I understand that this might sound repulsive on first glance, but frankly I do not think there is an answer to "why is there evil?" which would not be at initial examination -- certainly, it's no worse than the idea that we are simply here to suffer by random caprice, and that that suffering is itself meaningless, nothing but a failure on your own (meaningless) value function. Yes, one might hope that things 'could have been a different way' -- but what would a world without any grief, any suffering even be like? This is the point of the whole pleasure-machine/experience-machine thought experiment: many people would very much rather live in this world, with all its suffering, than one totally blank, devoid of depth and complexity. One might even go as far as to assert that no 'good' God could permit such terrible depths of suffering -- congenital illness, rape, torture, child slavery, so on and so forth. But so many times, in exploring theories of computational complexity or abstract mathematics or informatics, we see that what might have seemed to be simple assumptions can have enormous, essential effects: deciding whether all programs written for a FSM with one stack is simple, but for one with two stacks the problem becomes impossible. Perhaps it is impossible to have a world "with matter, with living things made from matter, with free will for those living beings, but without the ability of one living thing to enslave another". We cannot know -- but if there is a truly transcendent, omniscient God, then He certainly would.
For a more modern (more philosophically-flavored) take, I'd suggest reading Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling: he explores the binding of Isaac with the idea being to address this very question. In particular, he strongly disagrees with Kant's idea that God would simply choose to follow the categorical imperative, and emphasizes instead the transcendence of God and divine morality. But as an existentialist I think his writing is much closer to how we as members of the modern world can feel than philosophers/theologians who came before him.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#227The first, true and only philosophy for the working class, the exploited, the proletarians and the dispossessed is marxism. Teaching "stoicism" to people who barely can afford food, to slaves in the Congo, to overworked uber eats cyclists that work 12 hours a day for pennies, is not only ridiculous, it's criminal. Standing silent or content in the face of exploitation, injustice and the threat of destruction of human…
Even at my poorest in Canada, I've never known such terrible conditions. If there is some value to Marxism, we have not yet found a government system that can actually implement it.
Edit: What's even funnier is that my parents were well-educated professionals. My dad a mechanical engineer and my mom a lab tech. When my mom and I moved to Canada, my step-dad was a janitor. Technically he owned a janitorial company, but he was the only employee - basically a contractor. And yet, under capitalism, he was able to afford a life far more lavish than anything Communism would allow.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is not remotely what the philosophy is about. It's about not letting your external circumstances trouble your internal emotions, because they aren't what truly matters. It isn't passive acceptance - Stoics can, and should, try to improve the world around them. They just don't attach their happiness to whether those attempts succeed or fail. As to why someone would follow the philosophy, it's simple: we all face…
> They just don't attach their happiness to whether those attempts succeed or fail. Doesn't that seems bit pointless?
Attaching positive sentiment to the process of personal growth over percentage of success attempts allows you to build a framework of understanding to see where your sphere of influence extends to and where you can focus and continue attempting next to overcome your hurdles. You can obviously be disappointed something bad happens in relation to your efforts, but stepping back without attaching emotions to the situation allows a glimpse at the true impact of your contributions. That's part of my understanding, atleast.
Re: Stoicism's appeal to the rich and powerful (2019)
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
So what is your answer for Epicurean paradox?
Free will. If people are allowed to make choices, evil is a possibility. You can argue that free will isn't good, but I'm not sure what evidence supports that argument. So if God allows free will, then evil can happen. Just because he doesn't immediately stop it (read: eliminate free will) doesn't make God not-good. I think part of this is man's hubris in assuming we can know what is perfectly good. The Epicurean par…