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Should managers still code?

theengineeringmanager.substack.com

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Re: Should managers still code?

#221

Post by zmmmmm »

datavirtue wrote: post #218
tibbar wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, there's definitely a way to write code intentionally, for the reasons you listed, and I approve of that! But you'll see a lot of engineering managers coding because they are trying to help the team reach its next deliverable. This is usually short-sighted. I think of it as the management control loop: "I have some spare cycles -> what is the most important work I can do for the team right now?" Coding can be the…

No idea where these guys work where they can just roll up their sleeves and start coding. I would love to help out but there is zero time for me to code.

One of the reasons I keep doing it is because I know if I fall off the wagon it will very quickly translate into that situation. As long as I have everything set up like the actual devs do and know all the processes, it isn't a lot of time for me to jump in and do bits and pieces. And even though its a very slippery slope, there are absolutely cases where it takes longer to explain what I want than just to do it. Sometimes I will start it off to get the architecture right and then leave a trail of points to complete it with someone on the team. So there are times when it's a "time saver" and it's a win all round.

Re: Should managers still code?

#222

Post by randomNumber7 »

This misses the forest for the trees.

I understand most people have negative experiences with managers that can't code, but I would argue that the experience with these managers would also be bad if they could code.

You don't need to be able to code as a manager but you need to be highly skilled.

The only problem that arises then is that for decisions based on technical knowledge you have to trust others.

The main problem I see is that a lot of managers are too mediocre for the job and compensate it by trying to sell themselves.

Re: Should managers still code?

#223

Post by kamaal »

protocolture wrote: post #160

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

>>An unused sword rusts in its sheathe.

>>I dont think a manager of software engineers needs to code the application he manages, but he should be continually coding something to remain sharp.

I'd even go to the extreme of saying the coding skills/brains fade by inverse cube law. Skill =~ 1/t^3 (t = time since last practiced the skill). Musicians are known to say something along similar lines, like as little as a day of missed practice and they can feel it.

I used to be quite good at calculus as a teenager, and today I could look at the easiest problems there are and go blank. Only a faint echo of those days remains.

I have long suspected that Doctors suffer similar decline in ability as years go by from Medical school, and you can be sure in as little 2 - 5 years, most managers would struggle to imagine what writing code could look like.

Re: Should managers still code?

#224

Post by kamaal »

YZF wrote: post #204
protocolture wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Groups of companies, like Amazon, dont really make sense to me in abstract so I cant really comment. But whoever the head of AWS is should definitely have a grasp of fundamentals.

I'm pretty sure the CEO of AWS can't do any engineering work anywhere in AWS. He's an MBA and an Industrial Engineer (whatever that is). He used to be a product manager.

You still need to understand what you are selling, like in a very deep sense. Even if not at the technical levels, you need to understand how the financials of it all works, how to take product and sales roadmap forward. How to hire, fire, how to spend and on what to spend.

All this involves understanding the product in a very deep way, and a good deal of technical details as well. Else your staff will play you like a violin.

Absolute hands off abstract management by words won't cut it anywhere.

Re: Should managers still code?

#225

Post by kamaal »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #173
protocolture wrote: post #160

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

I don’t know man. Can Bezos code? Can he operate a forklift? Would he still even recognize Powerpoint if you opened it for him? At certain points things need to be let go of if you want to keep growing. Some managers might keep technical skills sharp, but I’m not sure they’re much better managers for it.

>>I don’t know man. Can Bezos code? Can he operate a forklift?

Most top level legendary CEOs, could. Zuckerberg, Gates, Jack Welch, Edison, Larry Page, Sergey Brin all worked their way up from the floor to the corner office.

>>At certain points things need to be let go of if you want to keep growing.

This is how you arrive at the situation Boeing is currently. Im sorry but not all businesses have a cookie cut text book way of running things. In fact running any business worth its salt will require you to know the skills at the floor level in a very deep sense.

Re: Should managers still code?

#227

Post by jamesfinlayson »

eevilspock wrote: post #66
n_u wrote: post #37

Strong yes for 3 reasons 1. Reducing dev friction. When I had managers who coded they were ruthless about removing friction in the dev and deployment pipeline because they had to deal with it too. If build times went up, deployment infrastructure broke or someone’s PR broke dev they would roll it back immediately. If someone consistently blocks PRs the manager noticed the trend and would address it. 2. You get a much…

I think it depends on how it is done, and the kind of ICs you have on the team. It can come off as micromanagement, which may work well enough if you have not-so-competent ICs, but will backfire if you have talented ones.

> It can come off as micromanagement, which may work well enough if you have not-so-competent ICs, but will backfire if you have talented ones.

Yep agreed - I've seen a couple of managers that were probably fine as developers but struggled (to their extreme detriment) with being pretty average compared to the senior developers that they were managing. Their 'helpful advice' just served to show how superficial their understandings of the systems were.

Re: Should managers still code?

#228

Post by tmarice »

Of course they should still code, otherwise they're not engineering managers, they're project/product managers, and good engineers will not follow those people.

Whenever we talk about EM duties, it's always a list of fuzzy, empty words:

> Owning the team's strategy and roadmap, and ensuring efficient execution.

This is project management.

> Making decisions to ensure that the team is working on the right things and saying no to the things that don't matter.

This is product management.

> Dealing with fires, escalations, and other crises that pop up all of the time.

How can an EM that doesn't code deal with fires? The only thing they can do is pull the sleeve of someone else who does code, and then, what, hang behind their shoulder until the fire is put out?

> Building a strong culture within the team so that people are engaged, challenged, and motivated.

This is meaningless. We're not children.

> Mentoring and coaching your reports so they get better and can have more work delegated to them, thus increasing output further.

Mentoring them at what? If an EM doesn't code, how can they mentor in an area that's relevant to the mentee (i.e. a coding engineer)? They can coach them on moving Jira tickets more effectively, or playing office politics better?

> Managing the team's stakeholders so they can offer their steer to the team early and often.

Again, product management.

> Actively performance managing the team so that superstars can continue to shine and underperformers can be coached or exited.

Combination of meaningless and project management. In order to be able to evaluate someone's performance, you need to know their work. If you don't, the only metric you have is number of tickets, or "velocity" or whichever other bullshit metric you use because you're not in the trenches.

> Building close working relationships with other teams so that smooth collaboration happens across the organization, leading to a better and more cohesive product.

Office politics.

The only one that make sense is hiring and retaining great people, but you can't do either without being a technical person.

EMs that don't code making technical decisions is a showcase for divorcing decision making from suffering the consequences of those decisions. And having teams with EMs + tech leads + team leads etc. is just making things worse by diluting the responsibility.

https://world.hey.com/dhh/we-once-more-have-no-full-time-man...

Re: Should managers still code?

#229

Post by jamesfinlayson »

noirbot wrote: post #205
whstl wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First: it's not "interference" if they are also part of the team. Second: If their ass is on the line, then they DO get a bigger say. They are paid for seeing potential problems, guiding the team, among other things.

Man, I wish the manager's ass was ever on the line. The amount of times I've seen a manager's whole team get laid off and the manager get moved to a different team to fuck everything up again is too many times. I think I've seen a manager get laid off never. And often seen half their team laid off because they were terrible at their job, but the management class takes care of their own.

Yeah if I implemented my manager's ideas, I'd be the one fixing them too. No thanks - if I have to deal with the problems, I'll decide the solutions too.

Re: Should managers still code?

#230

Post by asdf6969 »

No thank you. All of the worst managers I've worked with know just enough to offer annoying suggestions but not enough to understand why it doesn't work (usually workplace politics). Sometimes I can't "just" do anything. The best ones I've worked with used to code 5+ years ago.

I don't want to spend my time managing my manager. He thinks I'm an idiot because I can't follow his simple instructions and I think he's naive and ready to fire me. Bad for all of us!

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